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Old 08-15-2004, 01:28 PM
rjamin rjamin is offline
TE Newbie
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 24
Default Re: Point statistics

Talking about statistics reminds me of the following quote by a football manager in England:
Statistics are like mini skirts. They give you good ideas but they hide the most important thing.

Oh how it is so funny and right on the mark.
My average is around 11 points.
I agree with you that 10 points in TE is hard to get. For anyone who also participate in some other photo gallery community, sometimes you forgot about this and feel bad when a picture get "low points".
Personally I think even if I get less points/comments on TE, generally the comments/critiques from TE are higher quality.
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Old 08-15-2004, 04:06 PM
waysai waysai is offline
TE Newbie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 69
Default Make the level of playing field equal!

I think it is obvious to some photos that your name, your circle of friends and how well you are known in TE make more points than it deserved and not necessary by the quality of the photo itself. So, to make the level of playing field equal with all others, turn off the name, the points earned and write only the short note ( without revealing your style of writing ). And also turn off all info that could lead to a person like camera & Lens, location etc. Then see how your photo is judged by others. That will tell the true story and points the photo really deserved. If Adam could develop the system of user controlable fields ( ON/OFF options to all your information fields ) then you could test yourself whether the photo is truely appreciated by others.

Otherwise, the points alone can't make one photo better than similar photo that has less points. Just a thought that points are being counted too much in quantity than quality.
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Old 08-15-2004, 05:56 PM
dom_inik_m dom_inik_m is offline
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 770
Default "Blind test"

A photographic equivalent, at least, is definitely the best option. This is why I chose to see nothing but thumbnails and titles, letting my eyes and my piqued curiosity work out the rest.
A clear desire for surprise, some kind of challenge for myself, a testimony of honesty and respect towards each TE member...
I don't fully agree with Way Sai about the note (for a photo doesn't only show something, someone or some specific place, but expresses feelings, too), because I also like to write, because it's quite easy to ignore it if there's one... and because we all felt some form of frustration when there isn't.
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Old 08-15-2004, 08:05 PM
BobTrips BobTrips is offline
TE Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 817
Default Re: Make the level of playing field equal!

It's my impression that points are driving the system. When I turned off the points (quit giving points along with my critiques) the number of critiques that I received for my posted images plummeted.

The number of critiques fell so low that I have quit both posting and critiquing. I think I got only a comment or two on my last three posts. I did not get any critical feedback.

I continue to check the forums to see if Adam develops a sub-site for those of us who are interested in discussing image quality and how to improve one's work and are not interested in photography as a competitive sport. (I do miss the good old days. ;o)
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Old 08-15-2004, 08:23 PM
cgrindahl cgrindahl is offline
TE Expert
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,310
Default Re: Make the level of playing field equal!

Just read Pavlov's experiments and you'll get the picture. Rewards that can be counted upon lead to boredom. It is intermittent reward, that comes and goes without much sense, that drives the most insistent behavior. The presence of smileys does motivate people at this site as your experience demonstrates. Your comment that you "miss the good old days" is telling Bob. Does that mean you were willing to give and receive points and enjoyed the give and take? So far as I know there was never a golden age when everyone was happily sharing critiques without smileys. If you tired of having to work so hard by giving critiques, I can understand that. It must have been disappointing to have folks who previously exchanged thoughts about photos disappear when you stopped playing the game.

Honestly, I doubt that there would be nearly as much activity at the site if the hunt for points were eliminated. Adam is interested, as is anyone who hosts a website, in capturing as many "eyes" as possible. I may be wrong but doubt he would be inclined to do something that would diminish participation.
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Old 08-15-2004, 08:54 PM
BobTrips BobTrips is offline
TE Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 817
Default Re: Make the level of playing field equal!

Sorry, you're confusing Pavlov with Skinner. And you don't even know what Skinner said/wrote. ;o) There's nothing about boredom in the mix. And it's intermittent reinforcement, not reward.

But back to the real issue. Points do drive behavior on this site.

People have tried to figure out what types of pictures to post in order to get the most attention.

People have tried to figure out the time of day to post in order to get the most attention.

People get annoyed when they run out of points, promise points when they get more, are concerned about the time of day that more points will be available.

People give critiques to people who give them points. And I'll go further to speculate that people tend to give only 'Green Smilies' - Two points - so that they get more points in return.

Now if people wish to play the point game, that's fine. But the game works in opposition to real criticism. In the 'good old days' the site was populated by a small group of photographers who tended to be interested in receiving honest feedback and improving their work.

"Does that mean you were willing to give and receive points and enjoyed the give and take? "

No, I was very motivated to give and receive meaningful critiques and greatly enjoyed the opportunity to learn more about photography. Over time the learning was diluted to a point where it didn't maintain my participation. (The schedule got too thin and I quit pressing the lever.)
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Old 08-15-2004, 09:31 PM
cgrindahl cgrindahl is offline
TE Expert
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,310
Default Re: Make the level of playing field equal!

Pavlov's Dog ;-)
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Old 08-15-2004, 09:45 PM
BobTrips BobTrips is offline
TE Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 817
Default Re: Make the level of playing field equal!

Cute. And they got it right.

Wonder if there's a site on which one can teach a pigeon to guide a missile (the original 'Smart Bomb').
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Old 08-16-2004, 12:47 PM
joseelias joseelias is offline
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 871
Default Just live and let live

Not all the members that use the point system give nothing but hollow critiques, and not all the members that turned off the points are great critiquers. Each one chooses the type of participation he wishes, and each one is responsible for their own choices and their consequencies.

There isn't any contest in TE, and if some members look at the points received as a form of competition just let them be as long they don't harm TE and create a bad environment. Since I've started posting the point system only created problems at one time (at least in a bigger scale) and it was quickly solved.

Even for those that give points, writing 4 or 5 good critiques once in a while does not garantee, even, an equal feedback. If you want to get noticed you must participate almost everyday writing many critiques. Some will be good, others not so good. But that's the only way to get feedback.

The real competition in TE is not the amount of points you get in a photo. The real competition is to get noticed among so many postings.

So Bob, sincerly, I think your problem is not the points. I think you became overwelmed with the amount of photos posted and couldn't handle it so well. Your "good old days" were when there were very few members and postings, and when a member could look at all the photos with much calm and even critique all of them and receive equal feedback. Your good old days were not more than a small group of friends and not the global experience TE became.

Today it's more difficult. Today you must "fight" to get noticed and even to create certain relationships with other members that "guarantee" feedback (not only points...) to your work. Nowadays, it already exists the "groups" you claim so much but in an informal way. The difference is that today it's needed a certain regularity in posting and critiquing. Otherwise you get replaced quickly by your former critiquing coleagues because there's much to look at. I think this is the situation you had difficult to adapt to.

So, live and let live. And if you miss so much the critiquing as you say, why not starting giving points? But if you start givig points you'll see it's not so easy to get feedback as you think it is also... Giving points does not garantee you nothing.
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Old 08-16-2004, 05:07 PM
Keitht Keitht is offline
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gloucester, England
Posts: 4,054
Default Re: Just live and let live

I can certainly say - hand on heart - that whether or not somebody has points switched on or off; has or has not critiqued my work; has lots of points or few points, makes no difference to whether or not I will critique a picture. The only thing that does tend to put me off is if an individual picture has already amassed many points. In that situation I will probably assume that all worthwhile comments have already been made and not add anything. It won't stop me taking a closer look at the picture.

What I find more interesting is the amount of feedback on any individual picture that I have posted. Some that I have posted, I thought were OK but no more than that, but they may receive a lot of reaction. Others that I really like receive little. It just proves that you can't assume you know what other people will like.

One thing I don't like is where certain people always get many critiques irrespective of the picture. This does tend to suggest private groups of mutual back slappers. That is not to suggest that some, or many, of the pictures are not of a high quality.
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