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Great zmey 2008-02-25 13:33

hello daniel.

a clear depiction of this horrible hallmark. i like your desaturation approach: fits the epoch and subject well.

as to the 40 million versus the 1.5 million mentioned by Uhu, i find his 1.5 million to be a laughable estimate. i have heard the 40 million estimate from several post-Soviet sources. i cannot quote them directly now, but I can give you some examples that might serve as an indication towards the more accurate estimate.

first example: i am latvian myself. my country (Latvia) faced two waves of executions and deportations (1940-41 and 1945-49) during Stalin's power. across both periods, estimated several hundred thousand people were deported and/or executed by the communists. latvia used to have population of close to two million before the war so, we are dealing with attrition rate in the order of percentage teens. from my very personal experience, all (i am not exaggerating), all families i know have had at least someone executed or deported by the communists. my own family lost several members that way, including my grandfather who was shot like a mad dog by soviet soldiers in 1947 even before my father was born (his crime? he stepped in while the soviets were raping a latvian woman) and the brother of my grandmother (colonel in the army of the republic of latvia before the war) who was taken to siberia and at some point left to die dug up to his neck in the woods; note that Stalin got his hands on Latvians relatively late in his "career" whereas his rule over the other Soviet republics extended for much longer period.

second example: Chechnya. pre-world-war II population of 1.5 million. the whole nation was deported after the world-war II. only 250,000 returned from the camps in 1950-ies... so - about 80% attrition due to Stalin's actions....

third example: Ukraine, several sources mention victims in the order of several million to the famine artificially administered by the communists to tame Ukrainian nationalist tendencies... here is a link to a site discussin the mechanics of this genocide.

fourth example: Finno-Soviet war; number of fallen on the Soviet side is quoted in the order of millions...

the order of attrocities within Russia proper and the other republics was not less. by the way, accounts of Stalin's actions do not account for the victims of the Red Terror campaign waged by the great father of the russian revolution - Lenin himself. arguably, the number of his victims range in the order of 5 to 7 million. given Lenin was in power for much shorter time than Stalin, he was no less bloody than his successor comrade... given the reality of the situation that the communists did not have popular support among the populus and considered bourgeois, peasantry and inteligentsia their enemies, they arguably had no other choice to hold on to the power than state-wide red terror.

kristaps

  #21  
Old 02-27-2008, 05:50 PM
zmey zmey is offline
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Default Re: familiar rhetoric...

hello george

in the case of stalin, i suspect, the vast majority of deaths were indirect rather than executions. take ukrainian famine, for example. administered from moscow it killed supposedly millions: no guns used... same applies for labor camps: most died due to conditions rather than from executions. as to on spot-executions, mostly rifles and makarov pistols (the infamous shot in the back of the head...) were used in latvia. not sure about other places.

and... unfortunately it does not take a lot of technology to kill millios. take the recent rwandan example. millions killed in days... frequently by very primitive weapons. all it took was a crowd willing to rampage and kill indiscriminately on one side... gruesome...

k.
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  #22  
Old 02-27-2008, 06:14 PM
Polonaise Polonaise is offline
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Default Re: familiar rhetoric...

Wait a minute, Dan...
Just waaaaait a minute...

Are you trying to suggest that there were maybe more Russians, not just our good, ol' uncle Joe - involved in those delicate misunderstandings…
Two Russians…???

Instead of opening the Pandora’s Box with the never proven accusations and a western propaganda against peace loving nation – you better answer my simplistic question…
How he did it …!!!
How many fingers did J.S. have…?

Do you think is it possible to count those fingers..?
You know… So far nobody has the guts to count those fingers of his, in the unison condemnation of a gently smiling man, with his moustache and the smoking pipe and his devoted (historically proven) love for children…

After all, this leader was extremely busy answering the letters with the words of adoration for him, from the thankful people of his country…
The historians (the real ones) – are saying : 10000 letters per day (at the peak during 1936-38, the years when he justly cleaned the country from the bad guys).
Also: The songs and poems and movies and books with incredible loads of love and devotion to him…

You are not trying to indicate something - are you, dear Dan ?
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  #23  
Old 02-27-2008, 06:22 PM
Polonaise Polonaise is offline
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Default Re: familiar rhetoric...

But...But...

The fingers, Kristaps...
The fingers...??????

You see, brother...
The advance of the Soviet technology of those times was not good enogh to artificially produce so many fingers, and those dumb, quite primitive triggers, installed in the guns - those triggers were not able to activate themselves (huge, technological imperfection of even the best weaponry).
Joseph (if proven) have had to pull those triggers with his very own fingers- had he ?

And that was my question...

And I'd like to hear the answer before I die, for God' sake !

.............................
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  #24  
Old 02-27-2008, 06:28 PM
Wandering_Dan Wandering_Dan is offline
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Default Re: familiar rhetoric...

In order to count his fingers, we would have to dig up the body. Are you really sure you want to go there?

You do, however, raise an interesting point of propaganda. Unlike Hitler (or for that matter Saddam) who was generally shown in uniform and brandishing weapons, Stalin is rarely portrayed that way (in fact, I can't think offhand of a single portrait of him in a military way, though I could easily be wrong). The pictures and paintings that I saw of him (which are still around) show him as the Wise Father of his People earnestly consulting with (other) wise men about what is best for his country.

As propaganda goes, it can be argued that it was ultimately more effective than Hitler's, though I'm not sure I want to follow that one up too far either. (It also occurs to me that it could be used as a lead-in to a discussion about German vs. Russian perspectives.) At any rate, I found it an interesting contrast.

Dan
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  #25  
Old 02-27-2008, 06:30 PM
zmey zmey is offline
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Default Re: familiar rhetoric...

dear george

we, in latvia, tried to get the answer to your question, but... ended up nowehere... ended up being accused of trying to change history, trying to disgrace WW II heroes... etc., etc... i won't dive deeper into the topic. but I'm almost sure we will never hear any kind of official answer to this question. nothing along the lines of Nurenberg trial or bringing the executioners to justice (most of them are dead already anyway).

so, yes... you are absolutely right. soviet technology was not able to install artificial fingers on those triggers for Yosif to pull... about the reality... well, i know you have good imagination, my friend.

by the way, Yosif was not ethnically Russian.

regards,
kristaps
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  #26  
Old 02-27-2008, 08:26 PM
Polonaise Polonaise is offline
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Default Re: familiar rhetoric...

It looks to me, like I'll die a stupid, un-educated moron, with a never answered question, lingering on my muted lips...

I know , I've read a hundred times about German murderers, the after war trials in West Germany for a war criminals, (altogether, ab. 162.000 sentences of the various degree, against German nationals)…
Many death sentences and many ‘for live’ in prison…
I’ve heard about millions (billions ) of Deutche Marks, being paid in reparations for the victims of Nazi regime…
There are countless people from all over Europe, being offered a job and a chance for better living in postwar Germany (among them – myself, and millions of my paesanos !!!!)
I know that the Germans after war were kinda mental nuts against any wars and they did a lot to prevent a war…
I know that there are movies made EVERY year portraying mercilessly Germans and the darkest time of their history, and (so far) – no stopping them (the movies productions or TV series) whatsoever, or protests by the Germans. (some of those movies are made in Germany itself).
I know that I’ve never, ever met a German which I wouldn’t respect, or had any hesitation of discussing with him/her those horrifying years of their awful past…
Or, a German that bluntly argued about the past (I know – there are like these.. I know about them from every possible newspaper and TV program…They are very famous because of their awkward opinions (???)
Do you get it, gentlemen…?
I hear about those idiots who argue about the Germany’s past from PUBLIC (!!!) sources… From the open, commonly accessible sources ! Live…I can see them… I know their names…I can spit in their faces…
That’s what I call: Civilization and a democracy, and a human, humble decency…


And now, dear friends…
Now - let’s talk about the other side of the same theme…
The theme about mass killings, lack of basic civilized notions, about disrespecting every human life and human feeling - for the long, long decades… And be proud about it…
Giving medals to murderers, never ever prosecute them… Singing the songs, writing the poems about them…
hanging their portraits in every classroom... In every COURT (???)
And the innumerable lies, lies, lies…
Lies - as common, as regular, as many of them – that they are no longer lies…
They are the TRUTH – now (???)
And the banners… Red banners and flags… Even as we speak… Right now…


No… I won’t discuss this theme…
Everything has been said… I think…
(Beside… It scares the living crap out of me… Exactly like out of those trembling from fear - tens of millions – in there…)

…………………………..
That Stalin…
It’s him…!!! It was HIM !!!!
The creature with the millions of fingers...
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  #27  
Old 02-27-2008, 09:31 PM
zmey zmey is offline
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Default Re: familiar rhetoric...

and those fingers, my friend, they have survived their master...

k.
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  #28  
Old 02-28-2008, 10:25 AM
pasternak pasternak is offline
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Default Re: familiar rhetoric...

not only, they were born long before their master, those fingers, don't you think?...
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