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  #11  
Old 03-03-2004, 01:15 AM
joseelias joseelias is offline
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Default Re: Pointless??

"The difference between a 10-point pic and a 5-point pic is obvious."

Here I agree with Bob. There are many great photos without many points, and some only fine with many (I have some in this category...).

But I feel that in the TE spirit if a photo have 10 critiques with praise and "bad" critiques is as valuable as a 10 praise critique photo. Why? Because it created debate and thus made people participate.

In the current system the "Praised Photo" would get 20 points, while the "Discussible Photo" would get, lets say 8. So everyone would look at the 20 point photo and ignore the 8 point one (even if the later had a lot of interesting critiques and idea exchange. This is the reallity. The system I propose would reduce this gap. As I said Not a revolution, just an improvement.
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  #12  
Old 03-03-2004, 01:15 AM
BobTrips BobTrips is offline
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Default Points, critiques, totals...

Could someone please explain why it's important to rate some photos as being better than others?

Adam doesn't give out prizes.
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  #13  
Old 03-03-2004, 01:42 AM
joseelias joseelias is offline
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Default Re: Points, critiques, totals...

"Could someone please explain why it's important to rate some photos as being better than others? "

In TE none except composing the main page.

Bob, being you one of the members that does not use the point system does this proposal make more sense to you, than the current point system? Does it have advantages or disavantages in your opinion? As we usually (really) desagree I find you opinion useful. :-)

I know that some feel this is just another way to rate, but looking at the arguments above do you feel they could reduce a bit the points you usually criticize in the point system? Please analize it under the perspective that the system will continue to have ratings of some sort.
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  #14  
Old 03-03-2004, 02:40 AM
whereami whereami is offline
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Default Re: Just an idea - to Adam and all

Interesting stuff here. I really like the system the way it is now. I love to receive points and I like to give them. It provides a real incentive for me to get out there and take better photos. However I do acknowledge that there is a pressure to provide only positive critiques and that could be addressed.

I have a suggestion. On the gallery page I would like to see the number of received critiques for each photo.

Points should still be awarded but NOT displayed making it easier to give a 'lower' rating. The giving of points should remain mandatory.

Instead of a cumulative score next to each member's name, there should be an average score. That is, total points received divided by the number of photos taken. This would give a far more meaningful number.
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  #15  
Old 03-03-2004, 04:55 AM
BobTrips BobTrips is offline
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Default Hi Jose,

I a bit surprised that 'we usually (really) disagree'. Could be. Thing is, I'm blessed with a poor memory and usually don't remember anyone's position on anything. ;o)

Your proposal, to replace number of points received with number of critiques received, makes things different, but I don't see any real improvement. All that will happen is that those people who relish high point scores will work among themselves for high critique totals.

Let me take this back to basics. It is extremely difficult, if not dang near impossible, to measure some things. (Trust me, it was part of my professional training and practice.) And a bad measurement system can often cause more problems than they attempt to cure.

So let me ask again. Why are we trying to identify the 'best' photo among all our work?





(As an aside and not wanting to take away from my question, Adam can easily do the Front Page selection without any sort of public rating system. For example he can look at photos that receive lots of critiques, or lots of 'Favorites' tags, or ones that are critiqued by people whose judgment he values, or females from Nova Scotia who name ends with the letter 'i'. He can tag those photos that he wants to represent his site and put them into a Front Page rotation. No need for a public rating system to accomplish that end.)
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  #16  
Old 03-03-2004, 09:47 AM
Clochette Clochette is offline
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Default Misunderstanding

To all : Sorry for my english, I'm afraid you misunderstood me with the sentence "The difference between a 10-point pic and a 5-point pic is obvious."

I did not mean the difference of quality between these 2 pics, as we are not real art critiquers. It is always a matter of liking.

I was just thinking about the influence of points displayed in the gallery, for the viewers, trying to answer Bryan's comment.
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  #17  
Old 03-03-2004, 09:57 AM
Clochette Clochette is offline
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Default Average

Instead of a cumulative score next to each member's name, there should be an average score. That is, total points received divided by the number of photos taken. This would give a far more meaningful number.

Yes Dan, this is an idea I also like. By the way, I noticed on other photography sites that the average rating is very used, not only for the whole gallery of a photographer, but as well as for giving a final rate to each photograph.

This system has the advantage of taking into account the ratings AND the number of critiques.
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  #18  
Old 03-03-2004, 10:53 AM
adam adam is offline
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Posts: 2,658
Default Re: Average

"there should be an average score."

This has been raised before, my feeling is the point system is simple by design. Points and any assoicated stats are not important, it's the critiques which are important.

I believe BobTrips suggested displaying number of critiques received instead of points a while back. I'd like to try that out.

As far as having some members more concerned with points etc, I hope the new comment/critique option will alleviate this a bit. All general 'nice shot' critiques should be listed as comments, and members can turn off comments so they can skip such posts. I realize this won't really work, but it's a start.

Ultimately I feel having a groups feature will allow members with different perceptions to get more use out of the site.
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  #19  
Old 03-03-2004, 11:46 AM
padam padam is offline
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Default ...points to critiques instead of photos...

I agree with you Bob that a bad measurement system can often cause more problems than it attempts to cure. But the question remains if a 'good' measurement system exists, and particularly if it fits in with the main aim of TE.

IMO, most of the members are here to learn about the world and photography and frankly I sincerely doubt that the current point system allows to achieve this goal. My opinion is that giving points to photos introduces a biais so that most of the critiques are not honest.

I believe this would be more interesting to have a system that gives more value to critiques than to photos themselves. This will bring back the idea of "learning" as the main aim of TE.

An example. During these last months, I did not receive any 'bad' critique, only 'good' ones with 2 points. And of course I do not have the pretention to say that I'm a good photographer. The result: the only things I learned were that, for instance, people "like the blue colour of the sky" of my pictures. As a direct consequence, I have been much more active on other websites than on TE.

The proposal, to replace number of points received with number of critiques received, is already used on photo.net (more exactly top photos are classified following the number of critiques). I sincerely doubt that system will remove the biais in the critiques here. Personaly, I would be more interested in a system that give points to critiques and not to photos. This will encourage people not only to write a larger number of critiques (for those that are here to collect points!), but also to increase the quality of them. This will also increase the ratio "number of critiques/number of photos", which I believe is a very good point.

The 'useful/neutral/not useful' rating is IMO an excellent idea, but I'm afraid that most of the people prefer to collect "photo points" than "critique ratings". A system that gives points to critiques and a rating "good/neutral/bad" to photos can invert this tendency ;-))

Finally, I am a little embarassed to criticize a system that Adam offers so kindly. I hope, Adam, that you will not find my remark as an abuse of the hospitality that you give freely here.

pe
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  #20  
Old 03-03-2004, 11:53 AM
padam padam is offline
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Default Re: Average

"Points and any assoicated stats are not important, it's the critiques which are important."

I agree fully with you Adam. Thus why not a system that gives points to critiques instead of photos ??

See my previous post in this thread.

By the way, I'm aware of the technical problems this raises. This is only a proposition ;-))

pe
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