Patrice Carre's Wave - to Admin.

[KevRyan]

I am just writing to register my personal protest at the removal of Partice Carre's excellent picture of the detail of someone's whitewashing of a window at Mont St Michel - a celebratory 400th post - I found this photograph very evocative of the place and a very fitting observation from a photographer so interested and excited by the sea - it was an instructive image of the details that surround us and are so often overlooked by so many photographers and it also referenced elements of the body of his work so well.

For these reasons I completely disagree with the decision to remove it - it is a denial of the observational skills and creativity of a photographer TE is lucky to have on 'its books'.

best wishes Kev

[KevRyan]

Unless....of course....he removed it himself........in that case apologies!! .......Patrice.....if it was you....why!!!!!???

[danielswalsh]

Was it removed by the admins? If so, what reasoning did they give (e-mail) and has he disputed it?
(I can't find the users ID in the search to the left- what is it?)

- Dan

[KevRyan]

Hi Dan - it's Calimero76

I wrote to him but didn't hear back yet.

bw Kev

[Porteplume]

Bonjour Kev,
What I saw was just <i>a white painted piece of glas</i> which could have been taken anywhere...
I think when you want to let us see something "very evocative" of Mont-Saint-Michel we at least could have seen the old fashioned frame of the window.

It was indeed a good observation but the tight framing made it senseless as a typical detail of Mont-Saint-Michel, more an abstractshot which fits TL better.
My honest vision on it... :o)

Amicalement - Viviane

[KevRyan]

It was evocative in a very personal way for me - so my emotional experience related to memories of being there ....but not my main complaint about it being removed - there are plenty of abstract shots on TE that don't necessarily say so much directly about the place they were taken - it was an appropriate image to the body of this photographer's world and showed a detail of a place which relates to other images taken there and in the locality - I thought it was a great juxtaposition to his other interests and a good way of celebrating him.....so i beg to differ about it from my point of view.....but it is only my point of view....and my very personal protest! ;-))

best wishes Kev

[Calimero76]

Hi,
Thank you Kev for this thread
I am very surprised by this exclusion of course
I received this e-mail

" This is an automated email informing you of the following:
Your photo titled, "The wave" (photo1056151.htm) seems to
violate the TrekEarth terms of service and therefore has been inactivated.
The reason is: Should be on TrekLens
If the reason stated above is incorrect, please go to the following page to write an explanation and
it will be researched further and possibly restored. Otherwise the photo will be removed after 1 week:"

I don't accept this decision and i am not ok with "Porteplume/Viviane" when she said " It's just a white painted piece of glas which could have been taken anywhere... "

Then,I returned this e-mail:

"Hi
I return of work and I am very surprised to see on Trekearth that my four hundredth posted image disappeared
It's the first time and it's very unpleasant.
I can see much graphics images of all styles in TE and why this one is not good for TE?
I regard this image as graphic of course, but not only.
The place and the moment is important for me, in the Mont Saint Michel with the rising sun.
I posted much photos of Mont Saint Michel with special lights, with sea or no sea around it and this pic is ok with my precedent posts about the Mont.
The title is important: "The wave"
A wave who arrives in the bay like a horse at the gallop says the proverb.
An other thing, in the Mont, we can see the abbey, ramparts, the restaurant " La mère Poulard,the tide which goes up, sands moving, etc, but I wanted to show that each person can see there is another thing to photography and it's just necessary to open the eyes and to let gallop its imagination at the speed of the sea which goes up in bay ;)
They are my explications to this post... Thank you
PS excuses for my bad english"

I await the answer...

Regards

Patrice



Bonsoir,

Merci à Kev d'avoir ouvert cette discussion
Ce matin j'ai posté une image (ma quatre centième) qui s'appelle "La vague" ( une image très graphique prise sur la vitre d'un restaurant au Mont Saint Michel fermé pour l'hiver et peinte avec du blanc d'Espagne avec une lumière du soleil levant)
Et, à mon retour de travail, je m'aperçois qu'elle a disparue :(
Je suis bien sûr très surpris de cette exclusion
J'ai reçu un mail qui m'informe qu'elle devrait être postée sur Treklens, mais que je peux transmettre aux administrateurs les raisons de mon envoi de cette image sur Trekearth
Je n'accepte pas cette décision , ni les mots de "PortePlume/Vivianne" qui dit " C'est juste un morceau de vitre peinte en blanc qui aurait pu être prise n'importe où..."

Voici la traduction de mon mail:

"Bonjour
Je reviens de mon travail et je suis très surpris de voir que mon image "La vague" postée ce matin sur Trekearth a disparu.
C'est la première fois que cela m'arrive et c'est très désagréable...
Je vois sur TE de nombreuses autres images graphiques de tous styles, et pourquoi celle-ci plus qu'une autre n'a pas plus?
Cette image est graphique bien sûr, mais pas que cela
L'endroit est très important pour moi, le Mont Saint Michel.
J'ai posté de nombreuses images de ce lieu avec toutes sortes de lumières, avec la mer ou sans la mer autour et cette image est en rapport avec toutes ces images postées.
Le titre est important "la vague".
Une vague qui arrive dans la baie comme un cheval au galop dit le proverbe (qui est faux d'ailleurs)
Dans le Mont saint Michel, il y a l'abbaye, les remparts, le restaurant de la Mère Poulard et tous les autres, la marée montante et descendants, les sables mouvants, toutes sortes de sujets pour photographes, mais je voulais montrer avec cette image que chacun peut voir autre chose aussi,qu'il suffisait juste d'ouvrir ses yeux et laisser son imagination vagabonder à la vitesse d'un cheval au galop pour y voir d'autres vagues ;)
Ce sont mes explications pour cet envoi...Merci"

J'attend une réponse

Cordialement

Patrice

[Porteplume]

Bonjour Patrice,

First I want to say that my respons to Kev AND the deactivation of your picture are not a personal matter.
Second, your Request is just been received and the team will have to discuss it, but the 156 people who have read the thread may have not seen it... OK? :o)
So I would ask you, please, to re-post your picture as a WS so we can see what the problem exactly is. Sometimes photos are marked as "problem" but it can happen that the mods / I for this one / has taken his/her conclusion too fast.

Amicalement - Viviane

[Keitht]

I also have not seen the image so have to comment without the benefit of that knowledge. From various comments it would seem that it may be possible to interpret the image as an abstract, so potentially breaching the TOS of TE.
I have no particular objection to members trying to push the envelope of the TOS, but at the same time those same members must accept that the mods may choose to remove images they believe not to belong here.

[Docarmo]

We can still see the image on his intro page, on the Photo Viewer, below the World Map, at the bottom right corner.
MCV

[Merline]

It looks great on the Photo viewer ! I would be very sorry if it was not put back by the Admin. My very personal opinion. Creativity like this is needed...
Michèle

[Calimero76]

The photo is <a href="http://fr.trekearth.com/workshops/1050831/photo158351.htm">here</a>
Best regards
Patrice

La photo est <a href="http://fr.trekearth.com/workshops/1050831/photo158351.htm">ici</a>
Cordialement
Patrice

[jrj]

There is no problem to post a landscape without comments, content, structure or any significant interest at TE - in facts it's largely done every day. Who cares?

But a mod do care when the work is non figurative but still artistic, creative and original. Also when it seems to have had the necessary note, information and background notes (based on the info in the original post in this thread).

As with flowers, cats, dogs and other "hot" details that engage our corpse of mods at TE: There is no reason to remove a photo that by itself may violate the TOS - when the note is supporting adequate information. This principle was originally set in earlier days by the owner at the time.

There should be no reason for an old mod and member like Viviane to be unfamiliar with this. From her and other mods we hear of their lack of time to follow up and have time for their control task. Well then, why not step aside and rest their work instead of doing left hand work time after time...

[Merline]

Patrice, I am impressed by your photograph. And I protest even more as Jack says, that it had an appropriate note to go with it. An old window around it, ? That would take away a lot of its impact imho. This post has its place on TE.!

[Porteplume]

Well... After Jack and Merline, I 'll wait the opinions of the few other REAL photographers like Nuno, Henk or George...

Yes, be patient a little more, write again how stupid we are and of course I'll have enough of your "moaning" and quite, I've already informed Justine about it and then YOU can have the job and make TE a real paradise... ;o)

Viviane

[trekks]

hi Viviane

I am not getting into this debate about the photo because it is very abstract but good graphics. I let the mods and admin do their work.

But I have to comment on your use of the word 'REAL' photographers. I think perhaps you would wish to rephrase that? Because all of use here on TE with a gallery are REAL, not only 'REAL'. No offence meant, however. Amciably.

Kind regards, bill

[jrj]

To Viviane
No one says a mod is stupid. But you and other mods have many times pointed out that lack of time do not makes it possible to keep TE up to the standard defined in the mission, TOS and guidelines.

This is the whole point. Only today you can find several photos that have nothing to do at TE (<b><a href="javascript:wnd=window.open('http://www.johanson.info/bilder/tyres.jpg','PopUp','menu bar=no,resizable=no,toolbars=no,status=no,scrollba rs=no,width=200,height=130');wnd.focus();">Example photo with NO notes</a></b>).

I guess as long as the mods can not fullfill what they are expected to do then they will have little respect for a more random intervention that we seems to experience. And yes. Should the supermod Justine be in need of more mods or improvement of the work - here is some suggestions:

- Invite to an open recruiting of mods.
- Let the members suggest their candidates.
- All mods should be known by the members.
- Organize the mods after time zones so all posts within a day will be covered.
- If in doubt of a violation ,e-mail the member, discuss the post in the (often reffered) mods forum before removal.

No one regards TE as a paradise, but improving the site, removing the endless stream of photos that is outside misson, TOS and guidelines but still at the same time have mods with necessary flexibility and eye for the quality of the work presented at TE can't be to much to ask.(For that sake even I have a cat around here some place - accepted just for the combination of photo and notes..)
.. and don't loose your temper Viv :-)

[Clairedelune]

Well... After (Edited by member: please do not mention specific members names), I'll wait the opinions of the few other REAL photographers like (Edited by member: please do not mention specific members names)...


:)))))))

Sorry Viviane, but I could not let that pass!

By the way, you do usually a terrific job. You are one of my favorite mods (though I'll admit, I have no idea who are the other mods) because you are a smart and usually well-mannered, sensitive, and intelligent person. And I really mean it. Please, stay like that.

Claire

[avene]

I completely agree with Claire and Bill.

Viviane - as I've written before, I'm your fan :) and I respect that as a mod you take the time to participate in the forums and explain your decisions. as Claire does, I have always thought your explanations are very well thought through, as objective and neutral as humanly possible, and very business-like. and since you are the only one I've seen to do that, you sometimes get unjustified amount of criticism directed at mods in general. but I was very surprised to read your remark about waiting opinions from REAL photographers (again I agree with Clair's reminder of the rule mods themselves introduced - no reference to members in the forums). don't get me wrong, I consider the TE members you mentioned as my mentors in photography, but I wonder how you define "REAL photographer", and why only their opinion would matter. and something tells me that the members you mentioned would be the first ones to shrug off the title "REAL photographer".

so, I'll take this as April Fool's joke :)

have a fun day, everyone.

Kristine

[KevRyan]

Can we get back to my thread - not a Mod attack!! ;-)) and definitely nothing personal - just an impassioned plea for a photograph I appreciate from a photographer I respect in a context which I think is entirely appropriate to this site, its intention and its social relationships - a forum debate about mods and mod jobs and getting the system right is probably also appropriate but only for the good of the community and with respect to all the hard work others do already on our behalf.

......but thank you to everyone for joining the debate!

best wishes Kev

[avene]

you read my mind, Kev, I was just thinking that somehow we have managed to go completely off the topic :) but I'm happy to share what I think of the original question.

having seen the photo and having read the explanation of the author, I'm inclined to think that deletion of this post was unjustified. first of all, if all similarly abstract photos would be deleted, about half of the posts in any given day would be gone, including several of my own. if TOS are applied, they have to be aplied without any unjusitfied distinction. second, I never thought that an abstract photo cannot teach about the world, quite the opposite - it presents "the world" from a different perspective, as a microcosm, if you like, and with a good note it teaches much, much more than a snapshot-ish landscape with overexposed sky, titled horizon, some motion blurr and no note at all.

I'd like to see the photo that prompted this debate restored.

best,
Kristine

[jrj]

To kev:

Mod attack????????????????????????????

I had the impression kev that you did not respected the removal of this photo. The removal initiated by a mod...

It is of course most welcome to have some guidelines for how to discuss the work of a mod without discussing the work of the mod... just repeating as you:
<i>"just an impassioned plea for a photograph I appreciate from a photographer I respect in a context which I think is entirely appropriate to this site, its intention and its social relationships" </i>

How about: To anyone out there in the administration of TE who should by any chance be in a position to reinstate this particular photo - can you pls. do that so that the mod who removed the photo does not have hurt feelings and do not feel it wrong that some us think it was (just a little bit) unwise to remove just this fine photo work from a REAL photographer - PLS. just do it so we all can be back in the happy heaven of our glorious TE?

Same to you: Best wishes

[trekks]

To Viviane

I admire your voluntary input as a mod. I disagree with comments about your work. Because you are one of very few mods who care to write feedback and comments on the forum, to get criticized is not a good approach on your work. I hope you will not take it personally. I am not against the criticism. In fact, Viviane has responded a lot on this forum, out of her own initiative. I applaud to that.

IMO, the abstract post on the subject is of sufficient quality to justify on TE; I browsed briefly through his gallery and I think his work is good and admirable. But I have no problem with the removal of 1 photo if the mods or admin make a collective decision to remove it.

What is a big deal to 1 photo? We have many more photos to post and share. Perhaps the principle is more about how and what standard the mods/admin decide on a removal, not so much about that 1 photo, IMO.

Just my 2 cents. Kind regards, bill

[Porteplume]

Bonsoir everybody...

I was a bit too fast, I think, with answering Jack & Merline and I added "REAL" just to make a (too sarcastic?) point... I'm really sorry for that.
Point was that in threads about mods'actions, after Jack, usually as first, his opinion gives, then I soon expect to see people as (Edited by mod: please do not mention specific members names;o) coming to the thread to make it even more venimous, which I regret because I quite like those members as persons but they can behave very tough as soon they are ventilating their ideas... ;o)
Well, maybe I'm a bit tired as well to get all over me and I think about remaining a "silent" admin who just do the locations. I have never asked to become a mod, I was asked, just to help and I did it just to help... :o)

Thank you to the people who have shown their sympathy, I really appreciated that. I won't speak anymore about the picture for now, I already did, didn't I? And I just will wait to the decision of the other mods.

Amicalement - Viviane

PS: <i>removing the endless stream of photos that is outside misson</i> ?

[Merline]

Viviane, I did not say you or any other mods were "stupid". I stated, albeit maybe strongly for your taste, my personal opinion "imho", based on looking at it, that it had a note and also knowing that Patrice is a regular participant on this site since quite a while. Also, I guess, a "real" photographer ? ;-))).

It being April 1st, I'll take that with a pinch of salt o), actually the only thing I am rather sure is that I am a real woman :-). I think that I have said in some other hot thread that I appreciated your contribution. You are indeed, the only person with a face among the mods:-) and that takes the time to react on a regular basis.

Have a great evening, all.!
Michèle

[Merline]

Hou, Viviane, we must have been writing at the same time...I had not seen your last reply...
I know I can have a sarcastic streak sometimes:-))). But it is not meant with, how do you say in EN, malice ?

So, let's enjoy the first signs of spring and relax. You have a rest Viviane, take good care of yourself.

Kind regards
Michèle

[Porteplume]

So, well... Just two more words for Michele:

1) The note was:
<i>This image was taken in the Mont Saint Michel on the ramparts with the rising sun.
Window of a restaurant closed during the winter and painted with white painting.
True color, just a particulary framing.
I like much this image and it's my four hundredth on TE :)</i>
...which is not a particularly helpful note.

2) If TE has become a place where "regular participants" should get more consideration that any other, than I wonder if I want to stay at that place... ;o(

Have a good evening Michele and look at for the fish in your back - ;o) - Viviane

[Merline]

I did not mean "regular participant" as needing or getting more consideration, Viviane, just that Patrice has been there for a while, so he is more aware of the TOS etc, that newer members...
But my English s****, and very much so today.

His note is enought for me, but again this is only MHO.

Désolée pour la part de malentendu, il y a des jours je me dis que je devrais me faire moniale o).
And I love fish, so ;-).
Michèle

[ErikSven]

Though I’m more active on TrekLens than on TrekEarth, I’d like to express my point of view here... in favour of Viviane’s (Porteplume) decision to remove Patrice’s – excellent – photo.

The motto of TrekEarth being “learning about the world through photography”, I honestly don’t think this photo fits into that TE-motto. On the contrary, this is excellent stuff for TrekLens, dedicated to “learning about photography through our world”.

I think this photo has the merit to transform a daily life scene (that could take place everywhere in the world) into an almost conceptual piece of art. We see movement without seeing the person producing this movement. This learns me more about photography (how to picture such a scene) than about our world (i.e. it does not really give me more insight into the different cultures all over the world). So, had it been my photo, I would have posted it in my TrekLens-gallery...

Said this, I can understand Patrice posted it on TrekEarth, as I have the feeling that the Trek-photographers make their choice rather on the basis of their preference for the "human" community (TrekEarth or TrekLens?), than on the basis of the (different) underlying photographical mottos of both sites. And as the administrators do not have the time to delete every "incoherent" post, the few "punished" photographers logically feel frustrated...

Just my humble and personal opinion, of course. Feel free to (dis)agree ;o)
E.

[jasmis]

This photo is more suitable for TL, no doubt, but I have seen hundreds of photos less suitable on TE than "Wave" and they hadn't been removed. The misfortune of an author comes off that some admin accidentally noticed it and considered it to remove. That's all...
By the way... how do you think - whom Porteplume mentioned as "real" photographers? I'm very curious...
Regards!

[jrj]

To Viviane the moderator

As you say: <i>"PS: removing the endless stream of photos that is outside misson"</i>

I was into the gallery for 10 minutes and made a copy of some thumbnails that I would say is within the same definition to the one I understand you removed. And with all kind of respect to the outstanding work of the mods. Tell me how I can understand the need for removing 1 photo but keep others (all in the link from the last pages of the gallery and to be identified within 10 minutes (starting of course at the same point).

<b><a href="javascript:wnd=window.open('http://www.johanson.info/bilder/te_grap.jpg','PopUp','scrollbars=no,width=1000,hei ght=950');wnd.focus();">Why I can not understand the need for deleting ONE but keeping XXXXXXXX</a></b>

I understand that you are a person of high integrity madam moderator. And believe it or not so am I. And I can not give you or your superiors any credit for doing a random or conditional moderation of the site. Either you do moderating or you step aside and resign (don't even mention that there is not time enough or any payment for the job - at the best dicuss that with supermod Justine Cogan, do not whine about it here). No need to attack me for not understanding your way of operating. The photos talk for themself (all to be found within 10 minutes..)
J.

[KevRyan]

Hi Jack

A picture is worth a thousand words and your graphic visual presentation says it better than xxxxxx thousand words!

K

[ktanska]

Hi Jack,
I could recognize one location from those fingerprints. And many others couldn't be shot just anywhere. So, at least most of them are not pure abstractions without any possible learning about the world value. I don't know though if they have a note supporting that target.
Kari

[james-r]

Should the complaint here not be that one graphic image has been removed, but that others have not been?

[Porteplume]

To Jack

The context was: <i>No one regards TE as a paradise, but improving the site, <u>removing the endless stream of photos that is outside misson</u>, TOS and guidelines but still at the same time have mods with necessary flexibility and eye for the quality of the work presented at TE can't be to much to ask.</i>

So I now understand you give all these pictures as <i>the endless stream of photos that is outside misson</i> and should be <i>removed</i>.
But the truth is that <u>somewhere</u> there must be a limit and I can't find the words to explain how difficult it is to find the limits. We are not machines, no. We really try to discuss the Review Requests, we really try to discuss also when we are hesitating about a photo before any inactivation. And sometimes you've to give up because the majority says so...
Moderating is not an exact science.

But now I please want to let Kev's thread as answered concerning me. Please start a new thread "How to get rid of <i>madam moderator</i>" it will be more to the point I think... ;o)))

[oochappan]

Thread to be deleted:

- TE tended once to give more space to series, the photo shouldn't be deleted as it was part of a series
- the thread became a vindictive mean to get even for things from the past (deleted threads I got as souvenir)
- forum is meant for all members and not for stalking or spam (Adam would have delete this immediatly)

[jrj]

Viviane. I do not consider the examples in my link or the removed photo as right or wrong by themselfs. I just state that the a random and conditional moderating of photos at TE is unacceptable.

There is clearely a need to moderate the site to have a more attractive and interesting TE according to the mission, the TOS and the guidelines. The situation for TE have for a long time been that long time members and/or many members with a strong focus to the site have left and/or removed their photos. Time after time there is discussions in the forum where members come forward with frustrations to the way the site is moderated. If you and other moderators is unable to see that the work of following up the rules of TE is not good enough then you (and your group) for sure have a large problem.

This is my final participation in this thread. I think I have many good ideas for how to improve the moderating of TE and supermod Justine Cogan is anytime welcome to send me a private e-mail to discuss some ideas. No need to dig ditches in this forum to sit there like some survivals of WWI and throw assertions on each other.

And by all means stop that way of arguing where the mods present themself as a bunch of holy cows that all the time is doing the ultimate job for the community. As long as the members reacts to the mods works - there is plenty of room for improvements - can't be that difficult to understand.

Have a fine day out there.
J:

[michelloupis]

Hello Viviane,


Ok. I think it is fair to appear since you mentioned my name (Nuno... me I presume) and since you are one of the few mods that give the face when "tensions are high", even if no agreement is reached.

First of all I would like to say that if this was my site I would wipe out or change some of the TOS, specialy the one concerning nudity. I believe that rules are needed but they must be flexible. I also believe that TE is a great site amazingly organized and structured and the the owners are entitled to establish the rules as they wish. If members don't agree they can protest, get out or go on.

It is in this spirit that I find that you Viviane have a point. This is an astonishing shot, absolutely incredible, though I believe (and I must remain honest to myself) that it is more adequate to TL then to TE. I wish it could be otherwise and of course just like Kev, this is only my opinion. I wish the TOS were not so rigid and that TE could be more androgynous and accept shots like this one.

Please forgive me for stating my perhaps controversial opinion, in a way against freedom of speech and against my believes, but one should try to be honest even if it hurts.


Hugs to you all

Nuno

[fkostas]

Quite frankly, who wants to post at TL? Every time I look over there, there is a group chasing others around with torches like they are the angry villagers, and the hapless one they attack is
Frankenstein's monster.

There is nudity here, Nuno, but it seems the only accepted nudity is of "exotic" people. If I were to post nude photos from Miami beach of hot people, they would be removed. Double standard.

The real photographer comment made me laugh. I'm a real photographer. I took a picture of a rabbitt and some green stuff today. It was funny, Vivianne. :)

Farah

[Calimero76]

This morning in my e-mails:

"Hi Patrice,

After having discussed your photo - The Wave - with the whole team, it has been decided to not reactivated it.
It's really too much of abstraction, even if very inventive, as we have to get limits somewhere.

Regards,

TrekEarth"

:(((((

Good friday and week-end for all...
The begining of mine isn't good...
Regards

Patrice

[jrj]

But of course Patrice - a mod deactivating a photo can not be wrong. In fact the whole team agrees (wonder how many REAL photographers there is in this secret team). Regardless of your sin that mainly is related to the misfortune that one mod the day and hour you posted your photo had surplus time and motivation to do some moderating. I guess you have seen <b><a href="javascript:wnd=window.open('http://www.johanson.info/bilder/te_grap.jpg','PopUp','scrollbars=no,width=1000,hei ght=950');wnd.focus();">my example page </a></b>of some other photos with a "graphic and/or abstract" content that was posted more or less in the same time frame, but probably after the mod had lost motivation for doing more moderating that day.

To whom it may concern: I discuss not the need for moderating, or what to moderate. But find a big unjustice when 1 photo is deactivating while many, of the same kind, remains. Where individuals are concerned I find this kind of attitude disgusting.

It is also interesting that the deactivating is based on <i>too much of abstraction</i> which is a parameter not mentioned in the TOS (as far as I know). Probably just another experience in how TE will develop. Maybe you too will join those which do a time out, or have stopped posting or found other places to post their work. Sites without such random and conditional moderating as practised here.

J:

[KevRyan]

The sadness for me Jack is, that from my point of view, something vital is missing from the understanding of the work and motivations of a photographer.......this photo by photo judgement makes life difficult for many creative photographers who want to link a body of work - guess that's why so many left for Photoholik....of course TL can be used to make those links but somehow this stil doesn't work for many of us.

The points you make about consistency are essential if TE wishes to maintain the goodwill and integrity of relationships with photographers and the site.....of course it is difficult - there is bound to be a huge element of subjectivity in this - and the mods must expect a degree of challenge on their decisions - I challenged and 'lost' to Adam a number of times but always with a level of interest and courtesy about why he came to his conclusions ......for some people it may not matter as much as to others ......

For me the film standards of exploring a location still stand as a photographer.....

ultra-close up
close up
foreground
mid ground
long or establishing shot
extreme long shot
the aerial shot

to deny photographers this range on TE stifles the inventiveness and creativity and the distinctiveness of the place they are shooting and makes TE a poorer place. A more sophisticated understanding of what photography is about in showing the world is required from my point of view.

So consistency is one thing, sophistication is perhaps even more time demanding and worthy of further debate here amongst us.

my pennies worth

perhaps a new thread?

bw Kev

[KevRyan]

hello there Patrice....

time to pick yourself up.....dust yourself off.....put the 'battle' behind you and re-enter the 'war'! Why are old English phrases always so belligerent!? Your picture has stimulated something beyond people entering their comments to it in the normal way - it has stimulated a debate - it is probably one of the most important posts of recent times for me because of that......

All I can register on the pic is my respect and understanding of your decision to post it as an impassioned photographer - anyone who has seen your wave theme will understand that......for me a simple and brilliant evocation of that interest and passion for the movement, power and beauty of that form.....a classic photographic and contextual juxtaposition which lifts the creativity and interest I had in a site which has become so much more mundane in many ways in recent times.......

all the very best

Kev

[michelloupis]

Hello Jack,


That thing about the "REAL photographers" was unfortunate and Viviene already said so. If someone decides to invent such a club and put me inside there is nothing I can do. I just want to be me, that's all.

What you are saying about this two measures system on TE is totally right, but it does not resolve the question asked here about this specific picture.

This was as I think you can recall(and still is by the way) my criticism all over about TE, this arbitrary way of deleting or not deleting according to each mod's mood. Nevertheless, it seems that it cannot be changed. I also had recently a much less graphical picture deleted and well, what could I do? Nothing! I also wanted once to quit TE and jump to TL, that grandmothers bible thumper site. But the fact is, that in spite of all the criticism about TE, I still could not find a better place to post my pictures. And lately, I have been having a great time with some delightful members here. I'm not quitting to be critic about TE, but it's difficult to find something perfect. Look at the world! :-)

But you are right, no doubt about that.


Have a fine day Jack

Nuno

[michelloupis]

... and something else.

A much worse deleting case, which did not deserve any special attention on this forum, was the baby posted a few days ago by Isabela Sorescu. That yes, that was stupid, not even controversial.

[michelloupis]

It's me again Jack,


I took a look at your example page and if some are more than correct, some others are not. There is a door and someone walking and a building, which are not abstract at all. Perhaps graphical but you can see right away what they are about. And to include on your list the magnificent green fish picture posted yesterday is a great injustice. That shot is perfectly fit for TE and is accompanied by a very suitable note. You see some fishes swimming. That's all.


Regards

Nuno

[fkostas]

I'm sorry, but I think it's much ado about nothing when you get a photo deleted on occasion. It's just a picture, so make another. Having your whole Gallery deleted, on the other hand, is an issue worth complaining about.

I for one appreciate the fact that Vivianne appears in the forums to discuss these matters.

I think they should merge the trek sites, and keep one site for the adventurous, and a site for the Puritans. That way, no children will be offended by the odd nipple here and there, or see thru skirt on a plastic mannequin.

Farah

[jrj]

Hi there Nuno

The collection was mad in 10 minutes just to illustrate some photos that had graphic and/or abstract composition details. I did not study WHO made those photos, or if they had notes, just that they could to some degree be used as an example for a "look-a-like" - illustrate that the deactivating of the actual photo was made random and coincidential.

Hey.. man if my english is unclear I'm sorry - and if you took it for a scientific analyze it was not intentioned. And for you Nuno I have used the afternoon to make up this disclaimer:

<i>The intention was meant for illustration purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental.
The material on this page may be offensive and frightening to small children, the faint of heart, overly religious individuals, uptight individuals, democrats, Haitians, Mormons, Lesbians, Animal lovers, the socially retarded, carnival workers and adult film stars, please use caution when operating. Studies have shown viewing this page causes cancer in laboratory rats. Contains a substantial amount of non-tobacco ingredients.
All models over 18 years of age. Disclaimer does not cover misuse, accident, lightning, flood, tornado, tsunami, volcanic eruption, earthquake, hurricanes and other Acts of God, neglect, damage from improper reading, incorrect line voltage, improper or unauthorized reading, broken antenna or marred cabinet, missing or altered serial numbers, electromagnetic radiation from nuclear blasts, sonic boom vibrations, customer adjustments that are not covered in this list, and incidents owing to an airplane crash, ship sinking or taking on water, motor vehicle crashing, dropping the item, falling rocks, leaky roof, broken glass, mud slides, forest fire, or projectile (which can include, but not be limited to, arrows, bullets, shot, BB's, shrapnel, lasers, napalm, torpedoes, or emissions of X-rays, Alpha, Beta and Gamma rays, knives, stones, etc.)
Any advice given should be taken with a MAJOR grain of salt. I am not responsible for anything that may happen from using this problem solving system. I am not a professional, I have no training, I'm not even particularly good at handling my own relationships. So this is really just a joke. Don't believe everything that you read.
Reproduction strictly prohibited. No solicitors. No alcohol, dogs or horses. No anchovies unless otherwise specified.
Please do not sue me.
This supersedes all previous notices. </i>

Have a fine weekend.
J:

[KevRyan]

Hi Farah, For sure it is much bigger a discussion than about one photo now.....but defending someone's photo out of the body of their work is worth putting an alternative view about in my book,,,,it is often specific and little changes which provide the stepping stones to wider effects .....not that i thought beyond the photo in question to begin with......but it is is important to get beyond too much of an emotional reaction when things are removed........like the ego thing you talk about in your gallery I suppose.....but in the way people may feel sincerely about their work there is often so much energy often too......the effect of that emotion can be found IN their photography so often too - not just in them.....perhaps this is one of the ways in which we find our artistry becoming an integral part of the act of photography.....a photographer without ego and without emotion is like a mime artist becoming a statue as opposed to an expressive actor.....harnessing our emotions and facility to communicate with others (ego) is a matter of discovery (and maybe then management) rather than negation.......unless pure Zen photography is the goal! ;-))

Nothing wrong with zen photographers! Nothing wrong with debating photographs, photographers and photo communities! long live them all!

"I think they should merge the trek sites, and keep one site for the adventurous, and a site for the Puritans. That way, no children will be offended by the odd nipple here and there, or see thru skirt on a plastic mannequin."

That statement is worthy of a debating thread all of its own! How many Puritans would sneak to the other site on a regular basis to take a peak .....and how many of the adventurous would get fed up of the free for all and go for discipline.....aaaah the wonders of humanity!! Have a good weekend!

bw kev

[michelloupis]

Hi there Jack,


LOL :-DDD


Just a final simple question. Don't you like anchovies? Well, there is nothing better than anchovies on a good pizza! Beat that my friend!!!


A nice "anchovian" weekend for you too.

n.

[fkostas]

I actually dislike anchovies on my pizza except very rarely. I prefer a nice anchovy with my meze, and if they are fresh, many anchovies. We don't get them fresh here, though.

Kev, I like to go to the other site to laugh at zealots. I simply lurk, though. Seriously, I would like to use TL, but there are far too many chiefs, and not enough Indians there for my liking.

I may start my own site. Why not? I still have the plans for the community I was going to design-I called it Outlawville. Now, that was an actual place for people to live.

Farah

[michelloupis]

Hey Farah,

But you like turkey, I just bet... hehehe! :-)


And to Kev: "How many Puritans would sneak to the other site on a regular basis to take a peak..."

A lot my friend. They normally don't because they can't (that's why they became puritans)or because they feel so attracted to the wild side that they need to exaggerate the other one. There is no charm at all in being a puritan. Normally what there is in being puritan is deception, frustration, envy and ignorance.

And by the way... adventurers can also be disciplined. :-) Ok. Ok. I got what you wanted to say.


Great weekend for both of you

n.

[oochappan]

Gosh, so many words written on a deaf wall proving what ?

Try once:
"I resent the decission of the administration."

and be consequent ...

[KevRyan]

To Farah, Jack and Nuno! ....whatever else has happened I enter the weekend with laughter and a very big smile on my face - brilliant - some spirit and humour! fantastic.....

.....as the very famous cartoonist should have said " we will change the world through satire"

and as the cynical former comedian said

"unless they kill us first!"

I'm with the former - creativity is a birthright - anchovies are a matter of taste!

.......undisciplinable disciplined adventurers will always show the way!

happy week- end all......such a nice thing to have! Kev

[KevRyan]

deaf culture communicates with those who would listen............

[michelloupis]

Hi Henk,


"Gosh, so many words written on a deaf wall proving what ?"

Is there a translation into English of what you are saying? Or is this just another pseudo-philosophical thought not to be quite understood?

Deaf wall? What deaf wall? The administration? The members? The forum? The world?

????????

[photographer123]

I saw the photograph and totally agree with kev..Its a wonderful example of observation..If this photo violated the rules of TE,then I can say many photographs in TE should remove..best wishes to Partice...Subir

[photographer123]

I saw the photograph and totally agree with kev..Its a wonderful example of observation..If this photo violated the rules of TE,then I can say many photographs in TE should remove..best wishes to Partice...Subir