Trekearth Book

[kikvel]

I was wondering if here at TE we can publish a book with a selected set of pictures of the members...

We can contribute in many ways, financially, with pictures etc etc...
Can this be possible?
Can we evaluate the feasibility of such a project?

regards;

K.

[kevinos]

What a great idea! The owners of the site could approve someone to collect a range of the best pictures of the year and publish them in a book (with the photographer's permission, of course). I bet it would sell, travel photographs are always popular and the profits could be used for charity or something. Regards Kevin

[kikvel]

yes, it could start with a similar method as it was used for the exhibition in Trieste

and I am sure it will succeed, and this can be done on a yearly basis...

Trekearth 2005

...

Trekearth 2006

K.

[kinginexile]

I am not sure, we are all represented on TE galleries, this is the great quality of the site, the common ground is a mix of different aptitudes, philosophies, quality, all type of subjective approaches to each other's pix, this would get lost in a book limiting the participation, plus there are so many good shots on TE, people will get even more susceptible to why this or that guy gets his shot in and not this one. Arghhhh!... We already have so much discussions about who gets what points for what reasons.


the book is not necessarily a bad idea (BTW, it costs money to publish a decent photo book, a lot of money), I just fear the politics that will come with it.

Just my thoughts.

[kikvel]

The exposition of Trieste was nice and it did not cause any inconveniences.
I still believe this will be a nice project to work in.

K.

[mlopes]

Hi agree with you Cesar, it's a nice project to work, maybe there's someone among the members with knowledge in the world of publication and distribution... i know there are some writers among us.

If everybody give one photo and a little of their knowledge in the most diferent areas it will be a sucess...

i've probably don't have pictures worth of publication but count me in...

Mário

[gringofil]

We talked about a book before, but nothing happened. I'm guessing the same outcome for this thread. It's really difficult to get everyone together, to suggest pictures and such and it's even more difficult to get the thing published. Don't know if you know, but getting a publisher to get a book out for you with a bunch of photos does not work...because it does not sell. If you're name is not McCurry you have no chance of getting published. Also, doing it yourself, if you will, the cost being so high, I doubt many would sign up to do it. Anyway, you can bring it up again, maybe this time something magically will happen...but I truly doubt it.

[kinginexile]

Thanks for laying oiut the things straight, Gringofil, it is just a damned hard thing to bring out, a photography book.
Curious about Trieste. What was it about? An exposition is not a book, though, but not being sure what it was all about, thanks for filling me in.

[kikvel]

I know other sites like this has done this, and I can not believe that we do not have the skills and the energy to work on such a project.

I would suggest to have a similar approach as the Exhibition of Trieste. Of course we have to define some things, but at the end I can identify a few tasks:

- Definition of how many pages it might contain (and how many pictures).
- Preselection of pictures.
- Voluntarily choice to join the project (this means also money and pictures contribution).
- To check in a country, maybe Spain how much would this cost.
- Selection of pictures.
- Request for notes that will accompany the picture.
- Revision of the notes.
- Preparation of the book itself.
- Definition of the volume to be produced.

etc etc

maybe I am a dreamer, but I repeat other site has done this before
are we less capable?

K.

[kikvel]

and for you to believe me here it is the book I mentioned:

<a href ="http://www.itacacomunicacion.com/ojodigital/lod-cerrado.jpg">

<a href ="http://www.itacacomunicacion.com/ojodigital/lod-abierto.jpg">

[kikvel]

<a href="http://www.itacacomunicacion.com/ojodigital/lod-cerrado.jpg"> Book of other site

[kikvel]

<a href="http://www.itacacomunicacion.com/ojodigital/lod-abierto.jpg">

Open book, it is certainly nice, and they did it by having a good organization, do you still believe it is not possible?

[Isabelle]

I think, and with some effort we would do it. and we would learn a lot while doing it...
count on me in :)

[joseelias]

This issue has already been mentioned before many times, and as said, never lead to anything due to the difficulty of the task.

Still, I don’t believe this is impossible, but (as once I’ve said to Adam), the best thing is not to make one book, but <b>several books</b>…

Now, you’re thinking I’m CrAZy! ;-)))

What I mean is. A generalist book about TE is not very attractive in my opinion (Only NG , Magnum or Time Life are able to do this because of their name), but creating thematic books is a very different issue. The generalist book would be almost only appealing to people interested in photography, as the later not only to those interested in photography, as well those interested in travel and also in a specific theme.

For example (and these are only simple examples), having books with the theme “India – People, and Traditions”, “South-East Asia Contrasts”, “Great Monuments of the World”, “Man and the Sea” or “Western Daily Life”, etc., could be a great way to publish books.

The advantages of the several books are:

- The fact that we’re creating an offer to a specific market target and thus easier to sell.
- Lower cost and lower risk of publishing.
- The opportunity of adapting to the market in later themes to publish.
- If it’s successful, the creation of a “collection” will make the former buyers to buy the other “volumes” eventually.
- Each book will be cheaper and easier to sell, contrary to a big expensive book.
- Each book would be a smaller project and easier to take care and organize, especially in the beginning.
- The different themes would give the chance for a much broader number of members to be included, and reduce the disputes.

I guess some can remember of other advantages (or disadvantages…).

Also, creating specific themes regarding areas of the world could make easier to get more supports if the money was to be given to Aid Organizations.

For example, giving the income to an India Aid Organization from a book about India, would not only be commendable, but could also make easier to gather support due to the nature of the project, even from the mentioned organizations (experienced in gathering supports). In Europe the same applies for example for organizations helping people with mental of physical problems, etc…

I think that smaller and easier manageable projects are better than one single book portraying generalist images.

[gringofil]

I'm a bloody pessimist...kill me if you don't like it! ;-)

Anyway, and exhibition of photographs such as those in Triste was achieved by a group of individuals that already had an idea in mind, floor space to do it in and a target audience to buy the tickets (or was it free? can't remember right now). Also, they are professionals at what they do, they know the business and they know what the market needs and wants. We, on the other hand, or most of us anyway, are weekend photographers who may at one time or another have stumbled into a shot that works and that people want to see. As a whole, and don't get me wrong here, about 1% of the shots on TE qualify to be published. It's a huge task of selecting these shots and in order for all to be fair and square perhaps it should be done by a third party...people who have no opinions about the photographers, not friends and family (Daddy always says your shots rock, but the guy down the street slams you down and tells you they're all crap...who would you believe?).

Anyway, do this, see if it works, self-publish if you must, but the money and time spent on doing it just for the vanity of seeing your photo in print...well it's your decision, ain't it?

Cheers!

[joseelias]

1% of 160.000 photos is... 1.600...

Quite enough for a book. ;-)

I agree that doing this for vanity doesn't sound nice to me. Of course, it's natural that people feel pleasure and even proud to be published, but this project should have more noble causes beyond the vanity Filip mentioned.

And as I said, some of these organizations could help. In fact it’s natural that they know people with experience in the publishing field willing to help a project like this.

[Isabelle]

First things first :)
The most important in a photography book we already have: photographies! and we all agree there is a large amount of great photos on TE which are worth being published.
I agree with José Elias about smaller projects though. The Tsunami project gave already some experience for a project like this.
Vanity is another issue, Filip, and it´ll be treated in another point, ahead in the project.

[Homerhomer]

once upon a time I was a part of the group that produced a calendar, worked great, each photo submitted had to have donation with it (think it was $5), and we knew how many copies will be ordered, so the printing company told us the price for so many copies, printed as many copies as we have paid for. The calendar was priced at $20, and all profit from the operation (probably no more than few hundred bucks) was given to charities.

If one thinks of a book project in this fashion it may work, however if you think of selling it to general public.... hmmm, it would have to be something really special.

I have rented number of photography books from the library, and honestly wouldn't pay a penny for most of them

Take for example book with HCB photos, well photos are fantastic, but so what, I can see them online, the book had nothing else to offer, but on the other hand "Dogs, dogs, dogs" by Elliot Erwitt, I bought and this is why:
1) fantastic images
2) good reading
3) I like dogs, so the books appealed to me not only as a photo maniac but a dog lover, it was addressed to more than just photography specific group.

That book sold, well because it was done by well known artist, book done by TE group, well it would have to have not only something special in it, but a smart marketing behind it if it is meant to be sold anywhere but to few TE members.
Peter

[kinginexile]

I notice that the people trying to make more sense and appraise the difficulty of the project write longer replies, save Kikvel.
Tell me if i am wrong, but not one administrator has yet said "great!", and i believe Adam knows how much work he will have to put into this, just coordinating things.

Kikvel, others, write up a concrete project synopsis, show your real interest by starting spending time on it. Simply saying it's a good idea, others have done it, we have editors here (maybe the first ones cringing at being called upon), is not enough.

i actually think this is what should have been done before putting the idea in a thread.

BTW, there are more than 1% publishable pictures on TE. It's not like every picture has to be book cover worthy. For the pix contents inside the books, I went to a lot of bookstore lately, and thanks to 9 months on TE, I was able to apply critical eye to quite a few books . Some guys have the knack to sell themselves, or they are simply making their passion a profession. Still, not all their pix (and sometimes books) are an easy notch above many TE shots.

On the other hand, i saw yesterday "african ceremonies". i was blown away, absolutely fantastic book, separating the women (the authors are) and the boys. Can a TE book really make an addition on the photography shelves of a bookstore, or just be another nice book to flip thru after another.

sorry for being abrupt, just writing as i talk, do not mind, OK?...

Sincerely,

H

[kikvel]

the pictures are here!

We just have to set the goal and scope of it

I do not have much time now, I have to flight in a few minutes, I will continue this thread saturday when I come back

regards;

K.

[gringofil]

Vanity is the most important issue and should be adressed before such a project starts. Seperate the bad eggs from the good, so to speak, to ensure the success of such a project.

[gringofil]

Why does Adam have to get involved? He does not own your photographs...you do. He has already given you this wonderful site to share photos at no cost...do you still want him to give you more for free? How about you do all the legwork, mate?

You know what they say: give a finger and they take a whole hand...

[jinju]

Adam does have to get involved if this is going to be a book associated with Trek Earth. We own our photos but Adam owns all the copyrights associated with TE. And the point is that this is going to be a TE book.

I wonder though why you are so vehemently opposed to this book idea.

[jinju]

Does it matter what people's motives are? The only criteria should be the quality of the work. Choose a 3rd party professional to sort out the best shots. Since the amount of shots is so overwhelming perhaps apply a filter of say 30 points as minimum and then choose from those passing the filter.

But I wonder how to fit all the different kinds of shots into one book. Perhaps we need several different kinds of books: portraits, landscapes, architectural, etc etc etc.

[gringofil]

Why does it have to be a "Trek Earth" book? Why do you need to use Adam's logo? Perhaps just publish under your own title and call it whatever you want to call it (The World Through A Lens) for example. And anyway, Adam's job stands only at granting you his permission to use the TE logo, etc...But I don't think you have the right to ask him to helm the project in any way, shape or form. If he wants to do it out of the goodness of his heart, so be it, but don't force the guy to do it. And don't use the word "have", OK? He does not "have" to do anything.

Why am I opposed? Photography is a huge business that is hard to crack and to get into. You must have a portfolio of tens of thousands of "good" shots in order to be considered into a famous stock agency much less to get published. So if someone ain't gonna pay to get published, doing it yourself (what I called vanity a few posts back) seems kida strange, time consuming and expensive. If you want to sell your prints, perhaps the best way is to start small. Go to a small gallery in your city, show them your work, stage a display for a week or two, generate interest, see if people like your work or not, than try to sell. Once you sell and print or two, you might want to get into the publishing of a photo book as well, but that is way down the line.

Basically, you have to learn to crawl before you learn to walk. And jumping into a sea filled with sharks just because your Mommy and Daddy say your shots are good and that you should publish a book and spend a lot of money on it (your money)...seems childish to me.

If I had to put money on a book or to buy a new lens or camera of join a photo class to improve my skills...which one do you think I would choose?

[gringofil]

Peter is right...most of the photo books out there (even the ones published by famous photogs) are just crap. Now why would someone fork over twenty bucks for a book filled with photos by people whom they have never heard of? In that case, hope that all your family members will buy at least one copy...

[jinju]

I think you need to calm down.

Why use have? Adam does HAVE TO give prmission IF this is going to be a TE project. If he doesnt, no TE project as TE belongs to him.

Why do it as a TE ptoject? Because its what binds us as photographers. Professional or amateur, we are on TE. Doing it another way is feasible, sure, but it takes some of the context out of it.

Yes, for ONE photographer to get published he needs an extensive portfolio. We arent talking about me, you or any other single person getting published, but us as a COLECTIVE. And one thing we do have is an extensive portfolio of good photos. You wil find hundreds of VERY good to great shots on this site. So as a collective group, we have what you say is needed.

I wish you wouldnt use the mommy and daddy analogy. We arent kids, ok? We dont need your patronizing attitude and your childish anaologies to get the point. I dont like people who think they are above aothers. We all understand the basic facts, yet why should we let that stop us? I think there are enough good photos here on TE to put together one or even a series of good photography books.

[gringofil]

I'm not above anyone...far from it, mate! (I'm the only one here, in fact, that does not want to join this project because I think my photography is not up to par) And I'm calm, mate, don't you worry yourself too much.

All Adam has to give is his permission. The puck stops there. Cheers and good luck!

[jinju]

I didnt say whose photography was up to par. I dont think mine is either, but I know several people whose phototos are. Check out mackiekda. That said, theres no reason why there couldnt be a a large enough pool of photos from TE that would make a good book. There ARE brilliant shots here, rare but from the thousands of pics on TE I think you could make a 100-200 page book of top notch photos.

The issue of raking in a profit is a WHOLE different matter to be considered. But its totally seperate from the issue of having enough good shots to get a project off the ground.

We wouldnt even need to start huge. I mean, it could be a limited kind of a deal, we dont need to be in every Chapters in America. A limited edition of a few thousand books to start off and to let us gauge its success. If it flops, it wouldnt be a huge loss. At least though we would have given it a try.

As far as Adam, his involvement can extend as far as he wants it to. From the bare minimum of granting permission to something more extensive. Since it would be a TE project however, I imagine he would want to oversee it to some extent. I know I would.

[jinju]

Look at PBase. They put together the first issue of their online magazine. You can download it and its free. Why couldnt we do that? Have features on photographers, interviews, do some feature galleries on themes of all kinds? If its on-line, we dont need to worry about publishing fees etc. What do you think?

[kinginexile]

Why does Adam have to get involved?
--------------------------------

maybe you answered me, i am not sure. I dunno, i don't care if Adam is let off, just normal thinking on my part that if I have something i own, ort manage or is in my name, I feel a responsibility for anything derived from it, or done in its name.

[kinginexile]

Have features on photographers, interviews, do some feature galleries on themes of all kinds?
-------------------
that seems a better idea. A book is a major undertaking, if we want something to be proud of, I mean end product (distribution too), not just pictures in it.

Then, who will be proud of it? the guys who have shots in it, not the dozens who participate evryday and will get passed over. i think we have to look at who answered this thread with interest. Just over 10 or so. There are 1000s of members, at least 1 or 200 posting a shot within 2 to 3 days. they did not show any interest. I think I know why ;-)... (see start of paragraph)

[kinginexile]

Just over 10 or so.
-------------------------
9, actually.....

[mlopes]

well, i must agree that the online version can be easier but them what, we're online already... do you want to just sum up the better ones along with some notes?

The printed copie is quite a project, hard indeed, do we have the capability? hell yes.... and in the end the own satisfaction will certanly overcome the many hours spent!

Some subjects already mentioned before:
- Quality of photos???? ahahah TE has better photos than most of the photograpy books i've seen. Yesterday i've saw a book for 45€ of nightshots from lisbon... crap... give me a good camera and i'll do the same within days (LOL, and my nightshots sucks...)
- Quantity... well, there's no need to talk about this
- Money... yes it will be expensive... along with photos we have to donate some money
- Target audience... as i've read before the target audience will be us and our family, so be it! at least we can donate some funds to some association, and them, the second edition will be sold to some of our friends also, and the 3rd edition to friends of our friends and them to the generall public
- Recognition... CRAP CRAP CRAP... Henri Besson was certanly not know until he start to publish is work right? or did he born a megastar? i don't know many of the photographers that publish some books... i buy the photos not the photographer

Sorry for this testment... i've been away from the discussion for some time

Mario

[kikvel]

I am here.

Ok let us go point by point.

Feasibility
The book project is feasible. I am sure we can do it. We need mainly:
- Good pictures. We have.
- A leader of the project. We do not have.
- Money. Let us say we do have.
- Good writers. We have!.
- Time.
- A support on publishing. We can get, I am sure someone here can find out, how can we publish them. Even I can find out prices here, maybe here it would be cheaper to print the book than in Europe at good quality also.

- A goal? The sole intention of publishing something for vanity, to aid someone, etc etc is ok. We do not have to save the world with our book. We just need the desire to do it and decision.
There is no need to have a specific reason, we might just do it because we just want to do it...we human beings are difficult to be understood...aren`t we?

- A definition of what pictures to be included. I suggest to use the same principles as the Trieste Exhibition. Pictures selected from all over the world according the time zones. Number of pictures per page, etc etc.

- Does this has to be done with Trekearth? Not neccesarily, but why not? I think this should not steal any credit from Adam, in fact I think this would help the site to extend its scope by offering a book hopefully on a yearly basis.

- I guess Adam should be the administrator and leader of the project. He has showed to be a strong hand when required and these things require a firm leader.

- People would get upset if not selected for the book? YES, this is totally normal and it WILL ALWAYS happen.
But the Trieste exhibition was carried out anyway. And the upset people? There is no way to make everyone happy. If you find a method to do that please let me know!!!

- We can look for sponsors, the same ones already advertize at Trekearth page.

- We can have also a electronic version in pdf format that can be downloaded by paying a certain amount.

- We can do many things, but first we need to organize ourselves. I personally would be more than happy to help. These kind of projects will boost your skills on a personal level. I do not see a problem here. Many would like to join.

- Many TE members do not participate at this forum, but if we invite them I am sure they will join this project.

K.

[longwayfromhome]

Fil, there are many many reasons why a schmoe would part with hard cash for pictures by unknown photographers. The first, and most obvious answer is that most ordinary civilians don't know (or give a damn) who takes the pictures that fills their (gorgeous coffee) table books (i'm thinking of the last two NG books and the lONEly Planet book specifially, but their are many examples of this). The fact is people will buy books of good pictures, whether or not they know, or care, who made them. There is even the Phaidon book 'Anonymous' that I can cite as precedent. It is a celebration of photographs taken by unkown photographers which weighs in at £19.95 (US$45) and was fantastically successful last christmas.

[kikvel]

wouldn`t you be challenged to be part of such international project?

Is there already a book made by so many writers and photographers from all over the planet earth?

K.

[longwayfromhome]

I am prepared to help in any way I can.

[oochappan]

right Cesar
but maybe a narrow target or a theme would be usefull for help in the third world then photographers can offer their photos related to the theme and the editor will decide for the most usefull, not a question of a nice empty photoalbum then but a well targetted project with sensefull photos.
Tsunami call proved that it can be done but here it was relate to one moment already forgotten by the most, it should work on longer term like f.i. child labour in the world.

[kikvel]

Thanks Morgan, I will by myself check here the prices of a publication.

Jose Elias, I do not think you are crazy at all!
Your ideas are nice.

Henk
Yes we can do many things, but at first we need to make a brainstorm to write down some of them. This is not a short term project, it would take months to organize and to do something, but who is in a rush?
I believe we can do something alltogether even though we are distributed all over the world.

K.

[Isabelle]

I´ll check the prices here as well.
Have a great sunday you all!

Isabel

[kinginexile]

Is there already a book made by so many writers and photographers from all over the planet earth?
---------------------------------
Lonely Planet put out a couple decent coffe table photo books, with a lot of locales (one has every country represented) and photographers. I think one or more TE members do have pix on them.
Not contradicting your enthusiasm at all, just answering the question, BTW.

[kikvel]

with your answer I am convinced now that we also can do it!

K.

[kikvel]

I already have the prices for a minimun amount of 300 books, and also for 500 books.

K.

[mlopes]

How much Cesar? printed in Europe? or South America?

[kikvel]

you would`t believe Mario, in South America

before going into pricing I would like to invite others to join this project

how shall we start?

Adam I know you are omnipresent here, would you like to take further steps on this? Can you express your opinion?

We would really be happy to do a book here, with your support.

K.

[msadventure]

Brilliant Idea. There's so much talent here.
The book would not just be a book about beautiful photography but also of learning about world culture.
d

[adam]

I think it would be quite an endeavor to undertake but I would support it. I myself am still focusing on the 2006 tsunami memorial calendar with the kind help of other TE members. Thanks.

[kikvel]

So Adam, we can say you support this, I mean the Trekearth book?

I would be more than glad to realize such thing, alltogether;

K.

[donluicu]

guys,
this is a great idea! very complicated, but great.
I see this project like a mix of all the pcitures from all the parts of the world...you see the worldmap...you're interested in ..Argentina for example, and you go on the page, and see different pics from diferent trekearthers..
looks good to me.
we keep in touch.
ciao

[kinginexile]

Don,

yes, i think any book should show the huge diversity of the TE membership, 4, to 6 pictures to a page, and participation should be about love of photography, not just top shots from photographers who are amateurs by the name, but professional in skills and commerce ("i can give you a shot from me for free"...I saw that about the calendar, sorry but....Cooome oooon! :-)), and so-so shots from very popular members. Sorry for being frank again, but if we are starting something anew, like a book, let's try not to duplicate past shortcomings, let's try to be all-inclusive. I think we can have 250 to 300 members represented in the book, EQUALLY, and the cover should be voted by all.

[Homerhomer]

I on the other hand would suggest not covering everything and making everyone happy, but go very specific. Even national geopraphic isn't trying to cover it all in one edition.

I guess is that there will be very few poeple who would want to put in an effort and know how to do it, so screw the rest of us. Perhaps concentrate on the topic that is close to your heart, let's say you are a cyclist, then make it a main topic of the book, contact an organization that could benefit from some of the proceeds (say a charity of amputee cyclists) which could help with distribution, gather a group of writers and editors and other folks who have skills and go from there.

IMO if you cover everything you will produce a product that has been done million of times, and just about 999,997 times failed miserably, but make it unique and targeted for a specific group, it may work.

In addition from what I hear poeple work years to produce a decent book, it just isn't a weekend project, do you have what it takes?

Good luck to all involved.
Peter

[kikvel]

Yes, we have obstacles, and we have very good ideas, we should brainstorm here, now, this is the moment, everyone contributes a lot here

I would invite other TE members to join this discussion, every contribution is precious

K.

[rutti]

Hi guys.

I've just spent some time browsing through all the posts in this thread and I'm happy that there is so much will. I've only been a member for about a week but I love the site and I'll stick around for long. This community is one of the most active I've ever encountered on the net.

I like the ideá alot and I absolutely think that it's doable. However it IS a big project and I think that it would be very difficult to organise it with people from 10 different countrys working together. What we need is a core group of enthusiast that live near eachother and have the possibility to meet often. Publishing a book together is not something you do over an internet forum. Atleast that's what I think. We need at least three people that can take responsibility and have time to spare. I'm sure there are many people, like me, who would like to contribute with what's possible. But again, there is a limit to what we can contribute over the net.

Thanks.

[mlopes]

K,
you've did one very important thing, start the engines... now we need to heat them up and fly towards the finish line ;)

I think in the last hours we've walked the first steps:

- There's new people joining this (jakob)
- There's Adam support -- very important

Now imo we need to start thinking about the aim of the book:

- A generalistic book of photography, almost like an Atlas as sugested by Loic or a well definid subject like the tsunami callendar?
- Organization... jakob make a very good point... we are all over the world, it's hard to get along together, shouldn't we create teams to studie some subjects, or at least 2 or 3 main responsables?

Mário

[kikvel]

yes me need to establish an organization

I have done this so far:

- Check prices of printing the book at Py.
- Check prices of shipping to Spain just as a reference.

I think that we have to set also the goal or the theme of the book. I still believe that we should create a book to show the "world" represented by the many pictures we have here. This would include views of all around the globe and it should give more opportunities to everyone to be included. I believe the richness of our approach would be the diversity of pictures we can have in one book.

I think also that creating a theme would sectorize too much the book and many would feel excluded.

On the other hand, we also have to invite other TE members to join the project. I believe we should have at least pictures for a 300 pages book or a 500 pages book (1 per page? or two per page?)...maybe only one per page with the photographer`s notes and info of the picture.

I would suggest you to continue posting your thoughts.
Personally I believe that after making some definitions, the tasks would be distributed and once this happens the preparation of the files wouldn`t take too long. As we assume we have distributed resources all over the world.

I estimate a maximum of nine months to prepare and have everything ready. The most difficult part is to define things, and the selection. Once this is made everything would run smoothly.

K.

[joseelias]

César,

As I said previously, in the beginning of the thread, I feel that one single; generalist book is not the best option.

You’ve show us a book as an example, and that was nice, but I must confess that seeing a high speed train in the opposite page of a macro of a spider does not make any sense except for the fact that they were probably trying to please everybody. I felt no coherence in those two pages and personally that was not appealing to me and I doubt I would feel tempted to buy it. A book like this looks more like a catalogue of pretty pictures than something coherent and structured.

If you look carefully in the book-stores you’ll see that all books have specific themes. Just a few examples from the FNAC store:

UN MONDE D'ENFANTS / GEDDES, ANNE
Horses / ARTHUS-BERTRAND, YANN E JEAN-L
ON BARCELONA / various artists
LIFE WORLD WAR II HISTORY'S GREATES / N. I.
Century: One Hundred Years of Human Progress, Regression, Suffering and Hope 1899-1999 / BERNARD, BRUCE
Lisbon in the piers of memory 1957-1974 / GAGEIRO, EDUARDO
EARTHSONG AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHS OF OUR… / various artists
KIDS / TESTINO, MARIO
The Sea : Day by Day / Philip Plisson
1940'S DECADES OF THE 20TH CENTURY / YAPP, NICK
DOG DOGS / ERWITT, ELLIOTT
Mirror of Nations – National Geographic: a window over the world / various artists
Portraits / various artists

I believe that starting with a smaller thematic book, which could be the first of several, is the best option. In this first one maybe only part of the members would be shown, but if everything went well it could open the doors for several others and at the end a much, much larger number of members would have been shown and involved, besides the advantages I’ve previously mentioned.

Ok, maybe we can plan two thematic books, if that’s more pleasing…

Personally I don’t care if I’m not included in the themes, as I’m just happy to be part of this community and seeing it produce such a nice accomplishment. I’m just happy that some of my friends and people whose work I admire may get to be published. And if eventually I could be part of a book I would not mind to wait.

In Portugal we say that “The higher you climb, the bigger is the fall”, and that’s something to consider. I rather stumble in the first step than to fall from the top of the ladder… If a smaller book fails, the damage will be limited and we will learn with the errors. Besides, the damage won’t be so big that it will undermine our trust and the publishers trust in a second attempt. The same will not happen with a 300 or 500 page book. More if a big book fails you’ll be using / “burning” up too many photos that will not be included in a possible future second book.

[maciekda]

it is a lot of work to publish a book. I would suggest to start with something simpler first - sth like postcards, T-shirts or calendars.
in Paris I saw beautiful postcards with children from asian, south american and african countries. we have a lot of beautiful portraits here, why not to make some beautiful postcards?

[rutti]

Yesterday when I went to bed I got an idéa of a possible theme for the book(s). Since most people on this site are travelers and many photos are taken in foreign countries I think that the theme could be for example: "the way foreigners experience spain". That's not a suggestion for a title but for a theme. I think it would be really interesting for people in a specific country to learn about the perception foreigners have of their country.

People who have visited, for example, spain and taken photos can chose the snaps that for them represents spain and write about their experience. This would be fun and maybe more easy to organise.

What do you think? I know I would enjoy a book about how visitors in Sweden feel about my country and people.

[rutti]

Maybe a title could be something like "Spain through the eyes of the world" or "through the lens of the world". Or france, usa, india, whatever.

Something like that.

[kikvel]

it is time to brainstorm!

keep on brainstorming! please!

K.

[Isabelle]

i would go for a book divided in themes, like we have here. IMHO the book should also follow TE´s main objective, that is, 'learning about the world'.
have a good day all!

[mlopes]

I think i understand Cesar's idea about the book and i think it's good... harder to do but good. TE's is not about only Spain, France, Italy, India or Portugal. TE is not about only cycling, football, persons or landscapes. The book should follow TE own TOS: Learning about the world thru photography...

And i was thinking that this is also a great title: "Learning about the world thru photography" edition 2006 ;)

Maybe cover all the countries in TE or most of the countries divided by themes as Isabel last opinion is dificult, but at least cover the most representative countries and themes... we are talking about maybe 150 countries and couple of themes: People, architecture, bla bla bla

- Like this we are making not only our book, but an interisting world wide "almost-atlas" kind of book... i don't know many books like this, but i do know lots of books of some particular themes... we should not try to compete with the American Express guides ;)
- If we use an average of 3 pictures per page even with some full page photos we are talking of a book with +/- 300 pages (two sided)
- We cover more members
- I think the aim is not to make a world best-seller, let's just creat something to be pround off... if we can make some money of it donate it to some institution... not trying to be reach and sell millions of copies i think!

Mário

[kikvel]

Mario, you have understood my idea very well, otherwise we may fall again into India pictures, places and portraits only (just an example, please do not get offended) and that will exclude many TE members.

And also we have our goal at TE which is to learn the world through photography. Using themes complicate more the tasks. That is why I suggested to follow Trieste exhibition guidelines.

We do not want to create a "perfect" book, it should be representative, it should represent the TE spirit of showing the people, places and cultures of the world. There are too many pictures showing this that I am sure we can have a nice book; pluricultural and full of life.

But this is just my thinking.

Please keep on expressing yourselves.

K

[bnallama]

I have been following this for a while and here are my thoughts.

I agree with Mario's suggestion for a title like "Learning about the world thru photography (lenses??)" edition 2006 ;, I mean that would really reflect the 'mission' of this site. I am more for a generalistic type of book. Divided by regions of the world... for example this one from <a href=http://shop.lonelyplanet.com/product_detail.cfm?productID=2587&seriesID=19&seriesname=Pictorials&>LP</a>

I dont agree with jose's opinion that 'seeing a high speed train in the opposite page of a macro of a spider does not make any sense except for the fact that they were probably trying to please everybody'. I think there is little a spider can teach us about the world. I feel like it should be more like 'human' book meaning that for example the shots should include daily lifes of the people in the countries that tells a story..... Maybe second edition of the book could 'World Landscape thorough lenses' for example.
However I do agree with Jose that it should be planned properlly to avoid falling from too high...

THat's my first 2cents....
Bala

[oochappan]

one thing already said a few times,
we don't need a book with only nice pictures in it,
maybe a chance for all the very good notes
reflecting the spirit of learning about the world
comparing same situations is a nice idea
but how differant it can be described in a short accurate way by the author of the capture makes it really interesting
PS
(even written in their original language with a small translation would make it international)

[oochappan]

PS
and comparing here on TE exist already some time, see Theme

[kinginexile]

I read we should be close to TE's spirit, and that sounds right, so let's make sure it comes out as a community book, i'd say. The reason why I think we have to include as many members as possible.
the pix selection will be a hard one. Why don't we simply at some point, put a header in TE's opening page asking anyone who wants to contribute to answer that (meaning "yes") in a dedicated thread, adding how they wish to contribute (production, PS editing, one pix, texts, all of the above, some of, etc....). IMO, and i may be wrong, there will not be thousand of answers, maybe not even a couple hundred. This will show who gives a f..k (sorry!) about this book.
About charity founding. let's not put the ox before the cart. we may simply be out of our pocket on this. I even think the financial considerations may put a damper on enthusiasms once the numbers come out. Standing to be corrected...

H

[kikvel]

the idea was to have a picture book with the photographer`s notes, yes this was the idea, to explain and reflect a feeling , a thought

K.

[kikvel]

the TE spirit shall be reflected,

I insist to follow a similar proceeding as the Trieste exhibition. I would like to know more about the number of pictures selected then.

I guess 400 pictures is a nice number to show the world in pictures.

your idea about a header at TE page is nice, maybe also this project can be included at the TE projects link.

K.

[oochappan]

Why not building it out on theme's we have already ? a simply theme of joining for the book would be easy like the Tsunami.

[oochappan]

A possibility to preview participants by
<b> Book >> Theme </b>
like you can select now
<b>Earth >> Africa >> Cameroon</b> f.i.
would be most pleasant, no ?
Then the most remarkable ressemblances or comparisions could be put together as teams by Theme, with maybe a possiblity for comments to involve opinions on it by Theme in a constructive or suggestive way could result in a pleasant combinations ..... don't know if this is possible on TE ?

[oochappan]

Something like
<b>Book >> Theme >> photos >> comments</b>

[joseelias]

This task is far toooooooo big to select photos by placing them in a theme. For the Calendar, we had very specific areas (whit few images posted in TE) from which to choose, and the goal was somewhat clear. To show images of the affected areas where people and the sea where at “peace”. So there were only some hundreds to choose from initially and a few dozens later in the theme for the final choice.

In this case if people wish to make a generalist book you’ve got over <b>170.000</b> photos to select from - see why I believe that several thematic books are better?... The questions that can be aroused are:

<b>How to select the images?</b>
I think the only way to do this is to have filters to automatically sort some of them, and only after a manual choice must be made.

Now, the way this automatic filter can work I don’t know, as well the criteria. We can think of using the number of points and separate at first all those that have over 20 points, and also consider looking those that have under this number of points but have many views like at least 400. Still we all know the questions the use of points arouses in these issues, so I think soon someone will question this criterion. Still, I cannot imagine the large thousands of images that a filter like this will select.

20 points is a good number because at the beginning there weren’t many people in TE so nice photos didn’t get the galactic number of points they get nowadays, as well some less popular members have nowadays about this number for very good photo

Other options would be:
- to keep for the choice only the photos of 2002, 2003 and 2004. This would reduce the number of photos to select. And in the next year, if all went well there could be an edition of the 2005 photos and so on.
- For each member to be able to propose as eligible for the book a maximum of 5% of his posted photos. For example, someone with 200 photos could propose for inclusion in the book 10 images. These would be analyzed later. This has the advantage to include in the book only those members which are active and interested in the TE community. I don’t care much for a nice photo from a member of 2003 which has abandoned TE meanwhile, if I have another as good from a current active member.

<b>Who will select them?</b>
But after these images are sorted a manual selection must be made. And here’s another question. Who is sorting out the images? People from TE or someone from the outside?

The advantage of being people from TE is that it will be a team work with a higher number of people helping selecting the images. The disadvantage is that we are all amateurs with preferences and may eventually cast out images or themes that don’t appeal to the general. For example, street-shots are only liked by some, but are in my opinion one of the most interesting forms of photography. How many of them will be chosen by the “average” TE member?...

People from the outside, with more professional skills, could be a choice but it would be probably only one and unable to do a clear sort of the photos. It would be a full time job for a long time. Also he could be biased to choose some types of photos of his preference too.

[dom_inik_m]

Making a book requires to rely on a few basics:
- a good idea (or a series of ideas)
- publishing and circulation openings (at least if print is the sole required option)
- contributors (photographers, digital pp specialists, creative director, layout integrators, writers, translators, proof-readers, accountant...)
- last but not least, someone in charge (or a selected group of people, with clear goals and roles)!
Managing this kind of project really requires a full-time commitment, often more than that... Trust me, I know from experience, having conceived and published many books, magazines and digital media projects for the last 20 years.
And all this requires money, too. It's quite useless to have a strong concept if no one will be able to turn it real by lack of financing.

So, before deciding who'll sort pictures, I think it would be more sensible to start answering some fundamental questions first:
<b>What?</b> Sorry but a book on learning about the world through photography is not good enough, it reflect a way too wide approach...
<b>When?</b> End of 2005?
<b>What frequency?</b> Only one book? A collection? A yearly companion?
<b>Why?</b> Beware what Filip wrote earlier about vanity...
<b>For whom?</b> Target audience, etc.
<b>Who's in charge?</b> Since this is not some "one author", authority becomes the key word...
<b>With whom?</b> Members from TE with good will is not sufficient either (in any production process, whether amateur or professional, missing a deadline can prove to be extremely costly!)... For exemple, if Henk's multicultural and multilingual suggestion were to be followed (the best practical approach I've read so far on this thread, in my humble opinion), selected photographers should also have some writing talent...
<b>How?</b>
<b>How long will it take?</b>
<b>How much will it cost?</b>
All these topics are closely inter-related, of course...

Once these topics are firmly set, then we'll be on to something!

Food for thought...

[kikvel]

to express myself correctly, forgive me this

What?
I think this is a matter of decision, the site name TrekEARTH is a nice one; the book can be treated as a compilation of pictures of all over the world. Mainly pictures of people, showing the different cultures and also landscapes of all the regions.
I do not see wrong in having this approach. I just imagine myself 300 pages of only portraits...or only landscapes...

But if we have such quantity of pages would´nt be nice to see the whole world in pictures? People, festivals, landscapes, decisive moments all of them supported by the photographer`s notes and having the book organized in continents, or time zones?
I see that if we stick to something narrow, like pictures of Spain only, the interest would be also narrowed by this very first decision.

When?
This process can be as long as we want. This depends mainly on the decision and quick action of the persons involved.
I see two main sets of colaborators:
- One group of administrators.
- One group of content providers. (the owners of the pictures).
If the process is kept simple this can be achieved in more or less 9 months, so with this we will reach 2006 easily, but...who is in a rush?
We are all supposed to love photography and this is the main reason why we spend so much time here. Wouldn´t you feel happy to be part of a bigger project? Doing what you already like?
The other way is to convert this into a Babel tower...

What frequency?
I hope this can be done on a yearly basis. I foresee a yearly edition.
This can be also a booster on your already established habit of shooting. Now, you may be chosen to be selected to be part of the book.
I think this may help to have a stronger community.

Why?
Because we have the skills, we have the content and we love to work with image related tasks. This is like a normal and logical step on our community. I think, maybe I am totally wrong.
Why do you post here? A specific reason? Money? Glory? Vanity? Every one might have an own ambition, a desire, and I do not see anything wrong here. As far as we agree regarding the destination of the revenues, for instance, charity, etc etc.

For whom?
Initially for our own community, but this can be sold also outside TE, to a bigger market. The revenues generated can be donated, or can be expended in having better and faster servers for our own community. Something that we may enjoy alltogether.
The very first book will be a test. We do not have neither to save the world or become millionaires with it. I see it just more for the pleasure of doing it. As a challenge. Of course this is my opinion.
I would personally buy one for myself.

Who's in charge?
This is part of the definitions. We have to start from scracth, I do not see other way. And we will build stone by stone an structure to accomplish our goal.

With whom?
I believe that initially we have to do it by ourselves.

How?
By having so many skillful resources and having an efficient assignation of tasks.

How long will it take?
I already mentioned an estimation of 9 months. I am working on a project chart, to have a more accurate view of the whole process.

How much will it cost?
Less than you can imagine, if we can allocate resources within TE, and if we have the willingness to do it.

K.

[donluicu]

First of all , i would say that it's great to have so many ideas...
I agree with joseelias, he got some good choosing ideas.
I agree too with the fact that we have to choose a book with themes (love, work, weather...)
For example, why don't we show "LOVE" in France, or Italy, or India or Canada...with X pics (selectionned by somebody..who?) beside each pic, the author's note in two languages (english as the universal language, and the author's language, that would be fun to see hebrew, indy, french...beside the english..)
I hope you understand what i mean, because my written english is not so good...;-(

see you soon.

Loïc

[rutti]

I think it is a good idéa to make the book according to the meaning of TE and in that case the title would be "Learning about our world through photography". If we chose photos that has alot of substance I think it'll be narrow enough.

I don't know anything about printing and stuff but I fear that most images posted here on TE doesn't meet the quality needed for bookprinting. For example my originals are 1600*1200*24b and that's not good enough, is it? The professional people here must have better originals but that only accounts for a small group of people.

Also it would be nice if we can use the usernames when we refer to people. I haven't been a member for long so I don't know wich one of you have the unofficial nickname "Henk" (because I didn't find a user with that name).

[dom_inik_m]

Should there be one, I vote for Esperanto...

[jrj]

I have seen the dialouge with proposals of themes etc IE: Love. with all respect: Love is not a central theme in TE.

Should a book be published it must reflect TE and it's intention:

Learn about the world through photography.

It should present if not all, a large part of countries. As there is a diversion in main interest at TE, simply: Photos of people and photos of landscapes (incl. cities etc), there should for each country selected be represented 2 photos: 1 with focus on people. 1 with focus on landscape.

The selcted photos should be taken from someone not native in the country. Each photo accompanied by the photographers notes and a short intro (one sentence) of the photographer.

The book should not be 'gigantic'. Representing all parts of world maybe 200 pages. It means of course selction and not all and everybody can be represented.

Finally: I enter this discussion with doubt as I react again at statements of the type given by <i>kinginexile</i> which I comment below (kinginexiles statements in italic):

<u><i>and so-so shots from very popular members</i></u>

When the pestering of some <i><u>very popular members</i></u> is put aside - maybe they even come forward in the discussion...

<i><u>Sorry for being frank again</i></u>

Could be interesting to know Herve if you really mean that the so-so shots from very popular members not include anything that could be worth a closer look - OR should the photos worth looking at not at all come from any popular members - if so: WHY.

OR: If you tried to say that it will be important to look for quality photos undependent of the photographers position on TE, old/new, many/few photos, many/few points etc. - well then I guess you or anyone with english as motherlanuage should do it without using negative references to so-so shots from popular members. I sense an arrogance in these kind of statements that I think is unecessary in an otherwise interesting discussion around this project.

If you have anything negative to photos from whoever you classify as a popular member: Use the critics and stop making cheap points in discussions as here.

Let's keep this prosject going by a general posetive attitude.

[dom_inik_m]

...didn't require any immediate answers. I mainly stated it to help focusing on the general conception and production processes.
For merely thinking theoretically of a group of these, a group of those or much less money than one can think of won't lead us anywhere.
A full organization diagram has to be elaborated, including names, skills, availabilities (long terme/short term basis), salaries (if any), computer expertise, data processing opportunities, etc.

Wishing well and expecting the best is necessary, but I'm afraid it won't be enough. Far from it. And there are a lot of differences from posting a photo on TrekEarth, from time to time, and working to finalize a book, especially if it's a full-time occupation...
I don't want to sound too harsh, but I've been through a lot and hope to know a little bit of what I'm writing about.

Frankly, I don't see the point if the main goal of this project is to get part of what we can all find here, on line, printed on paper. So what would be the real and definite added value of such a project?
More to come, then... ;-)

PS I forgot to mention the potential legal issues, especially if portraits are to be included. So juridic advice is also required right from the early stages of conception...

[oochappan]

A lot of reading to do, a lot of ideas and a lot of suggestions ....
fine
<b>time for action</b> don't you think

- as the book should be a reflection of a year I like the limitation of photos made only in 2005, another selection will be done by members who offer on free base to participate with certain photos, here can also be a limitation of f.i. 3 or more that reflects really the spirit of TE by photo and note.

- as the book reflects a general image of all members I do not like the limitation of scoring at least 20 points, we should be integer enough to respect all members cause not everybody has the same possibilities or aim to post or to rate (imagine a poor man from the third world putting all his savings in a camera posting one photo on TE, he is happy to get his first two points while he has to look up to monster scores of a few that increases every year, not quite stimulating to start here, no ? so he can have his chance too with his 2 points, don't you think ?)

- as there is a lot of work and work involved we shouldn't use this as a nice excuse to do nothing at all .... most creations always start with a spontaneous dream, if we start analyzing too much mostly there stops the dream already.

but at the moment we are talking about nothing materialized yet, why not starting a Theme <b>Photo Book 2005</b>, as soon there are participants there we can all discus which one represents best TE in 2005 or even call upon some others for their cooperation as not everyone is so much involved in the forums and still have good posts in fact I wouldn't mind that rather new members with good post should be invited here too as a good community should take care for young starters, quite stimulating don't you think ?

<b>Let's start</b> somewhere and see how it evaluate ...... at least then we know what we are talking about .... a sea of time 9 months that will be gone before you know .....

[mlopes]

Hi must agree 100% with you Henk

- I agree with the 2005 limitation for chosing photos, let's start today with the pictures of today... many good ones have been posted in the past... yes i know, but we do have to start somewhere!

- The photos must be "donated" by the members, the active the better without putting aside the new members that join everyday... doing this we are selecting photos from active members... a community job made by the community itself! To be honest i don't like the idea of work to those who don't work for me...

- Forget about the points... they dont mean anything

- Agree with the notes of the writer, I have my doubts about Jack's ideia that photos must be taken by a foreign photographer.... but can make sense though!

- I think Cesar is starting a planning... great

- I think we are reaching a title "Learning about the world thru photography"... great

- I think we are reaching the goal... more generalist book about the world... great


First step first... Let's make something manly for the community... then let's see how high we can go without falling. How many members are active and willing to join? 100? 200? if's there's the commitment of everybody buy at least one.... ;)

I'm loving this, let's get the dream going...

Mario
-

[kikvel]

# Phot.# Crit. #Memb. #Fav. # Trav. Maps
Africa 6.256 34.265 237 838 44 3
Antarctica 44 278 2 13 0 0
Asia 34.010 189.398 2.621 4.631 247 3
Central Amer. 2.396 8.391 75 215 16 0
Europe 81.824 429.189 7.416 8.954 395 14
Middle East 10.590 48.280 993 1.019 34 1
North America 27.426 116.355 4.106 2.622 137 2
Oceania 4.574 21.979 578 528 27 1
South America 7.389 34.792 610 1.145 84 1
174.509 882.927 16.638 19.965 984 25

[joseelias]

First I want to say that Dominique Monrocq has drawn a good line of questions to be answered and can be used as a starting point for the organization of the project. They should be considered.

Second, for selection the photos there’s a resource we’re forgetting and that Sofia Pereira reminded me of, the <b>Favorites</b>!
No matter the number of points a photo has, if it has something special, it is usually chosen by someone as a favorite. There are photos with 100 points without favorites and others with 5 as a favorite of someone. So I guess this is democratic.

It’s something steady from the beginning of the site until nowadays. It will cover a great number of members despite the popularity of each and all type of photos, from the street-shots to landscapes or portraits. And they are “only” 20.000 compared with the 170.000 of the whole site. Of course some filters may be done to try to sort out a limited number of other photos, which are very popular but weren’t chosen as favorites, who knows why! Just to try not to miss some very good photos for start.

And I disagree with leaving the photos before 2005 out. Most of the great photos of TE are from the previous years. I’ve been here since January 2003 and I know what I’m talking about…

Use the favorites and you’ll get the best selection of photos of every years.

[kikvel]

# Photos
Africa 6.256

Antarctica 44

Asia 34.010

Central America 2.396

Europe 81.824

Middle East 10.590

North America 27.426

Oceania 4.574

South America 7.389



Total: 174.509

[kikvel]

not just to discard older pictures,

favorites selection is one way to go ahead

K.

[joseelias]

Finally, I’ll restate that I disagree completely with a generalist book focused only to be successful inside of TE. I wish a book, which can be put proudly in the stores. I’ll state the reasons for the last time:

- A generalist book, which tries to please every potential photography-book buyer, is prone to not please anybody. Someone who likes portraits will not buy the book just because it has 10 nice portraits among 300 photos. Those who like street-shots, who like industrial, or landscapes the same. You mix altogether Caviar with Chocolate Mousse and Rice and show me who will eat it…

I have a varied stile of photography and I know well that some members only critique me when I present castles, and others only when I present urban images and others, boats. That strict selection of interests is clearly seen here inside TE and people are free to look at all images! But if they had to pay to see photos that they don’t like than they would skip totally the ones they don’t like. That’s the same with a book.

- A big book is a huge investment of time, money and effort especially for people who don’t know much about this business. If it fails, too many photos will “burned” to be used again and the confidence of the members; as well publishers and eventually bookstores will be mined. Smaller editions will be easier to managed and allow a learning curve growth, for following projects.

- It makes no sense to show Portugal, or France or USA in two photos!!! Each country is much more than a portrait and a landscape! It makes sense to show “Urban Life” in the world. Maybe Africa will be left out, but hey! When it comes to “Traditional Ways of Living” the contrary will happen! You talk about sea, you’ll show Portugal but not Switzerland, but talk in mountain landscapes and the opposite will happen. These are simple examples. Better thought themes can be wider.

- Despite what people say, a generalist book will only show a fraction of the members, compared with a series of smaller thematic books in a medium term. The eager to present all, do all, include all is a mistake.

Thematic books will reduce the number of people involved in each project, yes, making it easier to manage too, but summing all the members at the end it will be a lot more people involved, shown and in a coherent way.

I'll be sincere. I don't like the generalist book idea a bit. It sounds too megalomaniac and incoherent in the final result. It will look more like exhibitionism of pretty photos than a true project of learning the world through photography. Something like "photography fast-food" than a "substantial meal".

[dom_inik_m]

<a href="http://fr.trekearth.com/read.php?f=1&t=110434&m=168030">conception and production process</a>
9 months from today will bring us to the end of march 2006 (not considering delivery delays and so on).
A little late for a book featuring photos covering the previous year, don't you think...?

[rutti]

I don't know if you understand this but most photos on TE is worthless for printing. Someone mentioned something about giving people from the third world with crappy cameras a shot for the book. But you have to understand that a picture have to be of excellent TECHNICAL quality to be ok for printing in a book. It's not enough with a really good motive and POV and whatever if the digital file is 800X600 and 200kb big because it will not be possible to print that in a book. If we browse favourites on TE and finds 300 photos that we want to use in the book I bet that not more than 50 would actually be good enough in a technical way.

I'm a big supporter of the project but I sense that most of us, including me, don't know anything about publishing a book. We need professional people who can guide the project in order to aviod spending alot of time on something that might be worthless. We need organisation...

and who is Henk?!

[kikvel]

Henk´s nickname is oochapan...

Do not get concerned about the size of the postings here...the photographers usually have the big original file in high resolution...

Dom.
let us exclude the year from the title. Problem solved.

K.

[kikvel]

Dom.

I do not see up to now obstacles that can not be surpassed:

- Legal issues. I already thought about that from the very beginning but I did not bring the theme to this board just not to have too many open points that can be discouraging.
The author of the picture will retain the copyright, and this will be stated clearly within the book. The author will authorize the use of the photo for printing purposes and this can be controlled by means of limited edition printing.

- Every author must be responsible of the copyrights and in the case of portraits this should also remain true.

We can work on as many disclaimers as required to cover legal issues in a proper way. I already contacted a lawyer friend of mine to ask a few things (for free of course).

I believe that this project is a good opportunity to be creative to solve all of these issues.

Things I have done so far:
- Check prices for a nice printing hard cover book.
- Check prices for shipping to Europe.
- Requested some free lawyer`s assistance.

K.

[longwayfromhome]

I absolutely disagree with the idea of limiting the book to this year. This makes the book obselete far too quickly. I have worked in the book trade for some years now and have a rough idea of how these things come together.

On Monday 4th July (no use trying to get a publisher to think for free on a Friday) I will email some contacts, and some strangers, in the publishing industry with links to this thread to see what they make of the idea. I am 100% certain that this book would be seen as a viable proposition, which is very important as they are where the money comes from. Having an established publisher involved is the only way I can forsee this dream coming to fruition*. As romantic as it would be to set up the "TrekEarth Community Press (c)" I can't see that working on the scale some people are discussing.

What countries will this book be available for sale in? I am sure we are all thinking about walking into our local bookstores and seeing our lovely book piled in their windows, but this is the case for only a small amount of books with some serious distribution behind them (ie. NG and LP).

* I should also mention that it could also be the undoing of some peoples dreams as they would undoubtedly take on all aspects of the books production (obviously, as they would not just chuck money at a bunch of internetters to make their first book, it must be commercially viable and I would wager that they all have their own definitions of this principle).

[mlopes]

I can see some of you are thinking of a worldwide mega production... covery every country and everystore... you must be talking about some thousands of copies... why? this is not doable in 9 months, nor with 100 diferent people with diferent opinions, cultures and personalities...

I can't imagine this book in my local FNAC... WOW i would be proud of that even it didn't cover any of my picture sure... i would help sure... but it is this that we are talking about?

Do you really think this is the only way that someone sponsor our project? i think nobody will do it... who will spend millions in a project without a face? or worst... with 100 faces all over the world?

I was thinking in something considerable smaller... some hundreds, firstly to ourselfs and our closer ones. we would be the producer, the buyer and the retailer and sold to our family.... friends... and even local stores! but then this must be a book about TE community and spirit! A book about Spain, France, or Sunsets isn't TE.

However count me always in!

Mário

[oochappan]

Thanks Mario, on that level, count me in

Me neither, I don't like the idea of a bestseller of the elite, carved up into pieces, it is not reflecting TE at all, why do people always have to think so big and do nothing ?

As much I have seen good photos even from the beginning of TE, I can assure that 2005 offers already so much quality that you could restrict it not dealing with 174.509 photos.
By carefully picking out and putting together you could get already a very good product that goes beyond the so easely defined "exhibitionisme" or "fast food".
Afraid to be burned ? A good photo never will burn and good combinations even less.

On the other hand at the same running a real conception and production process planned and leaded by the proposers, why not ? That would be constructive.

[dom_inik_m]

but of the right anyone has to have his portrait published - or not! Which means the photographer must have some kind of release form from the person(s) he took a picture of. And subtle differences may exist from one country to another, so legal advice has to come from recognized experts in the field. For exemple, did you know you can't publish photos of the lighted Eiffel tower without some specific authorization?
Once more, good will and amateurism won't be enough here... unless you wish to reinvent the wheel and, through trial and error, take numerous misdirections, go backwards and start again, always losing time, energy and money (whatever form of retribution it can take).
Printing, shipping... circulation too? Do you plan on opening a bank account to pay all the bills and receive payments? What about taxes? storage space? The list can be very, very long.
By the way, a larger file doesn't necessarily means it can be fit for printing...
Sorry to say, Cesar, but in spite of your will power and enthousiam, I feel you're not starting all this from the right end...
You'd better check first who's willing to be part of this project, doing what (proved skills? track record?), when, for how long, how much, etc.
Set up a viable team.
Finetune the concept and goals (much, much, much more than the few vague ideas I've read so far).
Decide on the global scope.
Work out financing options (and I mean real ones!) and a budget.
Put down a tentative production schedule. Rules, constraints, potential problems, etc. not forgeting a single one!
Then, and only then, it'll be time for the team in charge to decide on how pictures will be selected... I know, the fun part has to come after many tedious and arduous questions to be solved first.
And difficulties will not magically disappear after that. Far from it.
But such is life... ;-)

[kikvel]

Dom.

Sorry it is my bad english again...or my stubborn nature...

"Every author must be responsible of the copyrights and in the case of portraits this should also remain true."

With this I meant that every photographer should be the only responsible of publishing a photo like a portrait, in other words to get the proper authorization from the persons portraited...

I know that there are many obstacles, but I also believe this is feasible. And as I already mentioned from the very beginning we have to start from scratch.
I have nothing but enthusiasm now, and I am searching for support, wise advices and also enthusiasm and a positive attitude not to kill the baby before the conception.

Forgive me my stubborness but this is the way I am built and I will proceed gathering others that may want to join the project.

I do not see anything wrong in my proceeding. This is just a thread at this forum where we are analyzing possible schemes, directions, and mostly a mixed combination of ideas, enthusiasm, things to be taken care.

We have to avoid the construction of a Babel tower here. I strongly believe we are able to overcome our differences in terms of cultures, thoughts, beliefs and that we can realize this project.

K.

[kikvel]

by Mario and Henk.

I had the same image of the book. Not a super mega production but a nice book published proudly here within this community with the help and participation of the TE members.

Wouldn´t you buy our own small production, the result of a joint work, an international project, unique in its kind?

Wouldn´t you feel proud of it? I would purchase it as a gift to my brother, and for my friends.

There is no need to cover all the major bookstores from the planet with our book.

To define my idea of how the scope should be:

A 300-500 pages book completely made by TE members. In a very nice hard cover edition, and the idea is to have a limited edition of let us say 300-500 units.
The book is to be sold only HERE at the web page. Every TE member that voluntarily decides to join the project shall contribute with the equivalent price of one or two copies. For instance one for himself and the other as a donation to a charity organization.

K.

[mlopes]

Cesar,

One more ash in this fire ;)

I don't know if you know this guys, i think they come up with nice results at a very good price... don't know any of their photography books to talk about the quality of printing though...

You might want to take a look, the dowload version is very interesting also...

http://www.lulu.com


Regards from Portugal.

3am in Portugal and i'm here writing all of these... let's go for it...

[kikvel]

after seeing your latest post I though: "what the hel is Mario doing so late!!" it is already 10pm here in Py and I know you are hours ahead...

I will surely take a look at it

K.
Pd. Please take a rest, we need fresh minds to realize this

[mlopes]

Cesar,

I think that's the right way, i'm with you... that's just the way i imagine our little baby ;)

I will (and see how i write will, not would) buy some copies, i can even tell you for:

1- One for myself
2- couple as a gift
3- other couple as a donation to a local school library

Why can't we just think simple? but then... thinking simple is hard isn't it!

Thanks for starting this... not let's go for it... but simple please!

M.

[mlopes]

eheheh it's easier to think (easy) when everybody is sleeping ;)

M.

[kinginexile]

about the themes, let's still think membership. Let the theme be rather type/category of photography, especially as many members can easily fit in one type. just to think of a few: portraits, streetlife and human condition, regional landscapes showing the attachment of a member to the place where he/she lives, humour, etc..etc....

Hey, i will help in the writing, if needed...and for free!!!! (ahahha, just joking)

[jinju]

I lime the idea of restricting this to a year. In 2005 Im sure we have enough good photos to put together a book. Ofcourse we cant print photos from TE, we need the original high resolution photos for that. Does everyone have their originals? That would cut the number of photos down too I think as probably not everyone keeps their originals. Just doing a 2005 book would cut the number of photos down considerably as well. Applying a filter like the favorites and/or a number of points would further reduce the number of photos we could do. So, I think its possible to do a 100-200 page general photography book for 2005 and cover most of the themes that occur on TE.

As for writing, I think its crucial to have good writing. The notes would have to be re-written specifically for the book.

However, as feasible an idea as a general book is, I much prefer doing a series of books with different themes. Portraits, landscapes, architectural shots, street life, etc. That would be far more interesting for me, it would be easier to gear for a particular audience and it would probably be far more inclusive as we would wind up doing more books and that means more photos.

[kinginexile]

favorites selection is one way to go ahead
----------------------------------------
Sure, but let's remember many use the site with different responses to such features. For example, I hardly think anymore of that "fav pix"section, for no special reason. Still, I am sure there are great shots I could have added to my favs.

Also, I know i am anti-elitist, but I refuse to think of a book where "lesser" (sic) photographers will be passed over. My opinion is that all of us have some superb shots, never mind if they have been critiqued little or are not favorites. Again, the way the site is used by us is not always geared towards making it a science, which are the greatest, or most telling shots.

I have a couple friends who deal with publishing and visual media, and though they are not members, they checked TE after I talked about it. Use simple friends or family members too. But the end result is that they pick out shots that were here in eth lower middle of the pack, and members I had never paid attention to. Good ones too. One has no taste for any of my well-noted portraits, but wondered why a pix got next to nothing. Etc....

Er...We're still brainstorming, aren't we? :-)))))

[jinju]

Another idea I liked was putting a note on the front page of TE asking people to submit a number of their photos. I think the figure was 5% of their total number of posted pics. Someone with 100 could submit 5 of their best shots. Judging by the participation in this thread, the number of submissions would not be that huge. I think that getting a professional person or a group of publishing professionals with experience with publishing photography books to choose from that lot would be the way to make the final cut.

[kinginexile]

I agree with you, outside input (if not decision as to the final choice) is important. It's easy, once we start having enough submitted shots, our own too, let's use people around us with a curiosity or even knowledge about photography and photography books, if any, to give us their opinion.

[kikvel]

for the Trieste exhibition...

Just an idea, at that particular time there was a team of the Trieste exhibition organization that made a selection of the pictures for that particular event...

Can it be possible to ask them in return to do the same process once again? As I know TE members were kind with them allowing the use of the pictures, maybe they can do the selection according to the rules defined or the themes chosen to be part of the book...

We may restrict to 2004 and 2005 to narrow the scope of the selection...
And maybe only considering the favorites as already mentioned...

Would they do this in return?

regarding the notes, yes Rafal, they have to be remade specifically for the book...

K.

[rutti]

Can you please share with us the information you obtained about the pricing.

Good work Kikvel, you are the only one who's actually made some actual progress :).

[jinju]

They are CRUCIAL. I think as crucial as the photos themselves. People want to be able to see a good photo but also to read a well written note. I wonder who will write the notes. Ourselves? I would love the challenge of writing my own notes, getting a photo and note published would kill two birds wih one stone as far as getting published as a photographer and a writer. We would need writing help too though and the input of professional writers along with input from profession photography people.

[kinginexile]

And maybe only considering the favorites as already mentioned...
-------------------------
one more point on this fav topic. I only know well 2 members to have seen all their "2005" shots, well, just like me, they have not posted their very best, IMO, because just talking for myself, I have simply no idea why some of my shots get nicely rated and some fall flat. If the shot is a plain nice one IMO, so be it, no problem, but the ones that carry much emotion from that special moment/day i took them, well as I say, it's like throwing one's kid to the wolves, so to speak, and risk DOA (death on arrival). Tough shit, OK, but it's not about me, maybe dozens others are also refraining to post shots for that reason.

So, maybe, some of us dedicated to the idea of the book, could form little committees, 4 or 5, where we exchange mails within us, with many of these shots that can be seen instantly by the 4 or5. the idea being that more than one member should be able to propose and defend one shot, his or another. then, take it to the next level, a conference, kind of, for all portraits committees, or landscape ones, etc... no?

[kinginexile]

me again ;-):
BTW, this book must be about digital photography, NO SCANS. That's really what TE is about, the new way to shoot and share photos, using this exploding media.

About size, some great shots have done with 2MB cameras. I think 1600x1200, as a 6x4 format in a book can keep its quality.

[jinju]

This could be done as part of the number of entries you are allowed to put in. so, since you have 89 photos you could enter 5% of that or 4 photos. Although really, I think this should be restricted to photos on TE.

[kinginexile]

I think this should be restricted to photos on TE.
------------------------------
well, just throwing ideas here, maybe not, but Why? as long as it is from our community. Actually, as a marketing POV, it is rather nice to know there would be extra/exclusive shots that can be seen only in the book.

[jinju]

Well, sibce its a TE book I think it should be restricted to TE photos. But thats just me and I wont be deciding anything anyway:)

[markgong]

Kikvel, can you condense the last 100+ messages? I don't have the time to read through all of them to follow the progress.

Thanks,
Mark

[jinju]

What a long thread, eh? Look closely though at the number of people who showed an interest in this topic. Count the names. Its not that many. Look at the people who critique a lot daily. Not that many. I look in the Photos forum, and I alays see the same names, day in and day out.

My point? Most of the people who take an interest in TE amount to a small number of registered members. They critique, post, contribute in the forums, answer questions from other members. When we do decide to make a book, I believe that we should ask people to actively send in entries. I would be willing to bet that if there is a call for members to submit entries for such a project, the number of people who do answer the call will be small enough to make it a manageable job in filtring out the photos suitable for publication. Most people on TE will continue to be involved in the community on the most minimal level. This project seems to be attracting a very small number of enthusiasts.

[green]

Scan pictures is also digital photography.

And I shoul add that a digital camera is merely scanning the light.

Where's the difference?

[green]

TE underlying theme is learning about the world through photography (any kind of photography, a stenope made from a shoe box with a hole has its place on TE) and not learning about the world through digital photography only.

[kinginexile]

the medium of predilection, most will associate TE with, including the members, who in a large majority, for 2004 and 2005 now use digital, even though they may still scan old slides. A great shot is a great shot, I won't fight that.....
I just thought the book could reflect precisely the birth of such net community as TE, how so many of us have taken up (again) photography and signed on TE, because of the digital media.

[kinginexile]

Just adding, i do not know, but this could also be the very first all digital book from a collective of photographers, not such an undistinguished claim.

[green]

Cesar you've mention the book from a photo website. Since, there's still many questions on how to start and proceed, why don't you ask this site admin how did they manage to get the book publish maybe they can help us.

[green]

Im fairly sure that the book that was mention as an example by Cesar (kikvel) in one of his previous posting is an only digital picture book since it seems that the site www.ojodigital.com (digital eye) is exclusively about digital photography it think.

[jrj]

This thread is becoming to large. I suggest that you split it up IE:

<b>Theme or general contence

Filtering, photos, dates etc

Size and publishing

Tech. photo size, digital/scanned etc</b>

Presently there are not so many participating, still it is difficult to follow all details - see what you can do, maybe other ways to divide is actual. I think it is a good idea to start this way before loosing oversight.

[SophieL]

>BTW, this book must be about digital photography, NO SCANS.
>That's really what TE is about, the new way to shoot and share photos,
>using this exploding media.

Well, I guess I have to ask Adam to remove my account, then, since I only use slides and all the pictures I present on TE are from scans... :^)

I never read anywhere that TE was about digital photography. If some people have found a new interest in taking picture through the digital media, good for them, but this is definitely *not* what TE is really about.

I just want to add that I'm interested in this project, but I feel very much like Dominique concerning the technical realities that have to be dealt with. I'll follow the thread with interest.

[mlopes]

Important contribution Jack, we are drifting here...

I think that we must start to settle some major aspects, all the process depends of what we want to do!

And now i cleary see 2 roads, and some concerns posted here may vary from wich road we choose:

- Major publication: needing PRO help; needing PRO Lawyers help; needing mega filtering process; needing PRO distribuction media and major financial project behind

- Small publication: doable just by ourselfs (see my last threat), smaller costs, easier shipping and easier formal aspects


If we choose wich way we are heading to, them we can begin the preparation, if we don't know what to do how can we know what to be afraid of?

Some other aspects that i've read in previous messages:

- The photos should be from TE only
- Don't agree with digital only
- the first filtering process should be donations by the members... i do agree with the % distribuition
- Do not agree with favorits filterings... too elistist and may fail (i.e. i do love many photos but never marked any as favorite)
- The photos and notes should be exclusive by TE


A community book made by the community itself!

Mário

[Isabelle]

g,morning all!
I agree with Jack. Time to create "task forces" to discuss especific topics related to the book. Besides, locate these threads to "TE Projects".
let take my first cup of coffee of the day :))

[kikvel]

But as Jack mentioned this thread as a first step is done...

we shall create new threads and more spcific ones, so we can focuse on only one thing at a time

K.

[kikvel]

from Adam to start using the TE Projects Forum

As soon as we are allowed (if we are), I will post different threads covering major aspects for easier participation.

many thanks for all your contributions so far, it is really good to be with you here

K.

[kikvel]

Please redirect your attention to the TE projects forum.

TE book - Thread for destination of income generated new kikvel (3527) 1 0 2005-07-01 10:37
by kikvel ->
TE book - Thread for funds and money related issues new kikvel (3527) 1 0 2005-07-01 10:35
by kikvel ->
TE book - Thread for resources required new kikvel (3527) 1 0 2005-07-01 10:31
by kikvel ->
TE book - Thread for legal issues new kikvel (3527) 1 0 2005-07-01 10:29
by kikvel ->
TE book - Thread of the filtering method new kikvel (3527) 1 1 2005-07-01 10:27
by kikvel ->
TE book - Thread for the features of the book new kikvel (3527) 1 1 2005-07-01 10:24
by kikvel ->
TE book - Thread for selecting the themes to be included new


K.

[smartins]

I've been a little away from TE so I've only discover this project right now.
I just love the idea and I believe that with team work and dedication from all the members, we can do it! We can make our own book (",)
You sure count me in!

Take care,
Susana

[Porteplume]

Bonjour all of you!

I've followed the whole thread and that project sounds particularly exciting. So much enthousiasm in just two weeks!

Don't worry, I won't propose any of my "postcards"! ;o))) - But I'll participate with my heart - TE means a lot to me - and my mind, I'll try to think with you on all the TE Book threads.
And of course I hope to be one of the first buyers of the Book.

Wishing you a lot of succes!

Amicalement - Viviane

[Retagger]

I will authorize the use of any of my photograhs from Obidos, Portugal. I will also help in any way.

David......

[robiuk]

Here's my voice:

1. Great idea Kike, but I think we need to focus on creating a part of this web site for selling TE merchandise first (if Adam agrees, of course).

2. If Adam opens a TE bank account for donations, I will be the first one to make a donation.

3. Donations could be used for different purposes, from hiring a team to select photos, either for a calendar, book, T-shirts or mugs, to awarding a group of enthusiasts who would work on projects, etc.

4. Money collected by selling the merchandise could be used for keeping this site going as well as for different good causes (breast cancer, Africa related problems, Tsunami or hundreds of others).

I myself can't contribute with taking a part in any of these projects at the moment simply because of lack of spare time. Sorry.
But I'm prepared and will support any of the projects in any possible way!

Everyone, have a very successful week,


Robi

[cgrindahl]

I've been reading your comments Dominique and clearly your contribution is important if this venture is ever to move beyond dream state to reality. It reminds me of the experience when I first received my license to practice as a marriage and family therapist. Folks in my position first designed a business card and then designed a flyer they sent to all their friends, expecting, no doubt, that their waiting rooms would fill with clients. It hardly works that way as most of us quickly learned... ;-)

I love the enthusiasm of the folks coming forward with ideas, especially Cesar whose positive attitude is certainly infectious. There is no doubt that the best part of this adventure is the possibility of sharing it with members of TE whom we've come to know and respect. Yet you bring a dose of reality that is very important. Picking photos is like designing a business card. It is fun and relatively painless, while being completely irrelevant to the ultimate success of the venture, at least if it is to be accomplished in our lifetime. I'm aware of course, that it took centuries to complete many of the cathedrals in Europe. Perhaps the first edition of the<B> TE Introduction to the World Through a Photographic Lens</B> will still be under consideration by participants of TE when Adam's granddaughter is running the site... ;-)

I agree there needs to be formal structure of this effort with firm commitments from participants and clearly identified responsibilities. In another life I did neighborhood organizing, working with community members to mobilize them to address local problems. It was always easier to generate enthusiasm when the venture began than to get people to show up for meetings when there was work to be done. Choosing photos is fun, we do it all the time with our critiques. Laying out pages of graphics and text, or for that matter writing a coherent narrative, is hard work that takes talent and time. I know we have many talented folks who participate on TE, but I doubt any of them have the time or inclination to devote themselves to a task as large as that proposed. It has taken many months to get a calendar published that requires twelve photographs above twelve monthly calendars.

I believe Jose's suggestion that we focus the book has merit, though I fear a narrow focus might diminish enthusiasm among members for the effort. Would a book about “Man and the Sea” or “Western Daily Life”, for example, engage members from around the world? I don't know. Even a more modest book would demand essentially the same skill set as a larger book, though it could perhaps be completed faster, thus requiring less time of participants. One member suggested that if a publishing company took on the book they would handle all the creative decisions as well as production. Perhaps a well-defined subject would generate more interest among publishers and therefore make the project more feasible.

So, it seems to me deciding what we want to produce and determining whether we have the resources of talent and time available to deliver the product is the first priority. If we don't have the resources, then the second question is whether we have a product that would interest a publisher who could then take charge of production. As your comments implies Dominique, answering these fundamental questions puts the horse before the cart where it belongs.

[SavioCastro]

Grande idéia podem contar comigo.....

[cgrindahl]

IS NOT the photographs, it is the photographers. I mentioned this venture to a friend during a hike today. He's visited the site often because he enjoys my photographs but has never felt motivated to join or post photos. His initial response was that any book coming from this group should include biographical information as well as photos of THE PHOTOGRAPHER. The idea would be to feature one or two or a group of photos by this person on one page and a series of photos of the person and a narrative on the opposite page talking about this person's love of photography, approach to work and involvement in TE. What truly makes this site unique is the community of amateur and professional photographers who share their work and enthusiasm for photography. <b>Who we are becomes the focus</B>, why we feel inspired to take photos and how we share that joy with each other. That would be interesting!

[Paker]

I support this project with all my heart and I agree that it should be the photographers not the pictures that are the focus of the book. It is easy to be a well known professional with sponsorships and money one in order to travel and take exotic pictures. It is different when it is an ordinary person, for whom photography is just a hobby, a person with a limited budget, time and opportunities ... a person like most of us I presume. And books that talk about lives and interest of oridnary people are usually best sellers since the reader can easily relate.
Excellence is in doing ordinary things... in a very unique and original way - something I've read recently. So, let's do it !!!!!
Cesar - I congratulate the idea.
regards,
KRzysztof